Basic Level Talents - A Proposal

[tbeard1999]

Some have expressed a desire for more talents to be available to characters. I've stated ad nauseum why I think that's a bad idea for most campaigns.

But, another way to approach the issue is to add "base talents". These talents represent a "serious hobbyist" or apprentice level of competence.

General Rule. Many 2 point talents - called "full talents" - can be bought at a 1 point "base" level. Unless otherwise stated below, a base talent halves whatever penalty is applied when figures completely lack the full talent. Or, it halves any bonus received when a figure has full talent.

If the full talent only grants a success roll (i.e., Thief) add 1 die to the success roll.

A figure who has the base talent can acquire the full talent later for a cost of 1 IQ point.

Base talents require the same IQ level as the full talent.

Base talents are NOT sufficient to fulfill talent requirements for jobs, nor do they satisfy prerequisites for advanced talents.

Talents available at base level are listed below. Most are covered by the general rule above, but I'm showing the effect for clarity. Talents with a base level can be indicated with a (b) or somesuch.

Sword: -2 DX.
Ax/Mace: -2 DX.
Pole Weapons: -2 DX
Bow: -2 DX
Guns: No bonus to hit, but no penalty either.
Thrown Weapons: +1 DX; cannot ready and throw in one turn though.
Running: +1 MA; when determining half movement allowance, round fractions up.
Priest: Basic familiarity with religious rites and doctrines, but not enough to regularly lead a congregation.
Bard: +1 die for all success rolls; -2 from roll if you also have Sex Appeal; -1 if you have base Sex Appeal.
Detect Traps: Roll 1 fewer die instead of 2 dice to detect traps; converts to full Detect Traps if you also have Alertness.
Animal Handler: +1 die for all success rolls.
Naturalist: 3/IQ to identify creatures; +1 die for other success rolls.
Thief: +1 die for all success rolls.
Mechanician: +1 die for all success rolls; includes base Remove Traps
Physicker: heal 1 point with physicker's kit.
Detection of Lies: +1 die for all success rolls.
Ventriloquist: +1 die for all success rolls.
Disguise: +1 die for all success rolls.

You can extend this rule to 1 point talents, but I'm ambivalent about that. At some point, you're re-creating GURPS. If you insist, the following base talents cost 1/2 IQ point.

Base talents with -2 DX: crossbow, knife, shield,
Base talents with +1 die for all success rolls: Sex Appeal, Tracking,
Horsemanship: -2 DX but no DX roll required to stay mounted.
Swimming: 3d if you fall in water
Climbing: takes twice as long as someone with Climbing skill; 3/DX roll every 5 minutes to avoid a problem. +1 die for any success rolls.

[Chris Rice]

I'm not keen on this idea of "watering-down" Talents at all. To me, one of the uniquely attractive features of TFT Talents is that they represent a substantial level of experience and competence in a skill or ability, something that clearly separates a character from others. The only "levelling" of Talents I'd be interested in would be the "Master" level of a talent which would represent an individual who had reached the pinnacle of skill and had gained unique abilities unavailable to the base level of the Talent.

A good example of this is Horseman/Expert Horseman from ITL.

The Expert Horseman can (forgive my paraphrasing):

Break wild horses or other riding animals of a type they are familiar with.
Ride broken-in animals even if they are of a new type (Wargs, Velociraptors, whatever!)
Suffer no DX penalties for using weapons whilst mounted.
Train riding animals like an Animal Handler.
Heal them like a Vet.

These aren't things that a character with the Horseman Talent can do at all; not with a DX penalty or a 4 die roll. Never. They are unique to the Expert Horseman and why the "Master" level of Talent should be prized.

This is the way that I understand and love the TFT Talent system and I don't want that to change.

[Chris Rice]

Or put another way: to me the TFT Talent system has 3 levels:

1. You can't do the thing at all (you don't have the Talent)

2. You can do the thing (you have the Talent)

3. Wow. You can do amazing things (you have the Expert/Master Talent)

[David Bofinger]

I've said elsewhere that I think four levels are needed. As an example, look at four characters' qualifications in Woodsman:

• Myopia: a young alchemy student who's never left her home city and can get lost in a nature strip.
• Grimdark the Blue: A typical adventurer, used to tramping through woods among other environments.
• Sylvia of the Glade: The party's scout, hired because she knew the woods.
• Mick Dundee: justly famed as one of the finest bushmen in the region.

i think every one of those levels is needed in a role-playing game. If you disagree, tell me which one you'd let go.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Or put another way: to me the TFT Talent system has 3 levels:

1. You can't do the thing at all (you don't have the Talent)

2. You can do the thing (you have the Talent)

3. Wow. You can do amazing things (you have the Expert/Master Talent)

THIS to me is essentially the correct interpretation of the basic frame-work of the established TFT Talent-System.

LARS had previously in another post summed it up quite nicely, which I will paraphrase as: "an On/Off switch for an ability". As CHRIS is also stating here, it goes from: OFF, to ON, to even more ON (if you will).

While I admire all the thought so many put into attempting to refine the Talent-system, as I have said before, taking us from this "Binary - On/Off" basic format, by trying to interpolate a "gradient" system, while admirable, takes us further and further away from the original and inspired "feel, form, and flow", of what make TFT, TFT; into something else.

DAVID B has also hit on the edge of what is root-frame work, with his proposal of "4 levels"; however, these levels - IF I am following you correctly David - really are operationally more "gradient", than "binary" in operation; so I would ask you to consider the following as you continue in your refinement of your concept. If I am misstating your idea, please forgive me, as I have not seen your fully fleshed-out proposal, so I have to knowingly make some uninformed projections as to your specific meaning and intent. If I am in error, I apologize.

From TFT:ITL, we see the Talent for Unarmed Combat I through V, which as both CHRIS and LARS have nailed, is either "On" or "Off"; you either have it or you don't - simple. The subsequent "levels" in UC serve to give specific extra unique abilities other characters do not enjoy (binary), and specific bonuses at a flat-rate (i.e. Not Gradient).

Correctly or Incorrectly, I basically view the overall Talent engine as a lightbulb, which is either On or Off; and when On can further (with the acquired level), offer the added ability to completely cast a special color to the light - such as the ability to cast: Red at I, Orange at II, Yellow at III, Green at IV, Blue at V.

Anyone without the COLOR talent just casts plain old white light.

My essential point is: I see the engineering behind the Talent System as a binary and additive platform - and NOT a gradient one, like a rheostat dimmer switch which would provide refined levels of white light - and I think many of these suggestions fall into the: "How I would install a rheostat talent system into TFT", which, by my interpretation, doesn't really fit our original binary wiring system, in terms of: form, feel, and flow.

But hey, do what you like; I love reading everyone's brilliant ideas and concepts regardless!

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I've said elsewhere that I think four levels are needed. ...

Hi all, David.
I tend to agree with the four levels idea. (Perhaps not on EVERY talent but certainly for every 'job'.) I also think that if it costs X resources to go from no skill to apprentice level skill, it should (say) 2x effort to go from apprentice to journeyman, and 4x effort to go from journeyman to master level.

That will make the cost of becoming a master, high enough that it is meaningful.
And if the cost is significant, that level of mastery will be fairly rare, which gives a nice dynamic.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

There are already a few master level weapon talents, but what's available is mixed:

No weapon talent: -4 DX (or inability to use some complex weapons)

Normal weapon talent: no DX modifiers

And then by type:

Sword has Fencing ("Ability to use a sword WELL"): extra 2x & 3x damage chances

Thrown Weapons: +2 DX, no time to ready

Missile Weapons: +3 DX

Expert Ax/Mace (Dwarves - I'd make it a 3-point talent that dwarves only pay 1 for): +1 damage

Unarmed Combat I - V: all sorts of stuff including +3 damage, becoming useful to everyone (depending on what works when armed/armored or not) if you get the über levels.

And then a few that aren't weapon-specific:

Warrior and Veteran

Two Weapons

However there are some weapons that have no expert-level talents:

Pole Weapons

Shield

Ax/Mace (unless you are a Dwarf or adopt my idea above to make it a talent).

Seems to me a basic expansion that keeps to the existing pattern might be something like:

Expert Ax/Mace or Pole Weapons: as above, gives +1 Damage

Master Ax/Mace or Pole Weapons: gives the Fencing rate for 2x and 3x damage

Expert Shield: Shield Rush takes 1 more die to resist and does 1d6 damage.

Master Shield or Sword or Quarterstaff: Gives extra defense from hand weapon attacks through front hexes, a block chance or +1d6 to hit.

Defense Expert & Master: makes you harder to hit (though adding these at +1d6 per level creates pretty steep tiers)

Eyes Behind (wants better name, probably shouldn't work in a helm): part of the UC IV ability, but why couldn't it be developed by weapon-using fighters?

Deadly Strike I to III: +1, +2, then +1d6 damage - if Unarmed Combat can do this, why not weapons?

And again, I think if you allow extra talents to be bought like attribute points in excess of IQ, I think you'll get less attribute bloat as well as more diverse high-level characters.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

There are already a few master level weapon talents, but what's available is mixed:...snip... Defense Expert & Master: makes you harder to hit (though adding these at +1d6 per level creates pretty steep tiers) ...snip... UC IV ability, but why couldn't it be developed by weapon-using fighters? Deadly Strike I to III: +1, +2, then +1d6 damage - if Unarmed Combat can do this, why not weapons?

Perhaps another approach to attacking the situation would be to first see what a direct - or at least best possible - translation of the current UNARMED COMBAT I - V Talent Family would look like, but presented as ARMED COMBAT I - V; and begin to refine for serviceability from that stating point.

Of course a figure would have to take the Talent for each specific weapon.

As an Example:

IQ 10: ARMED COMBAT I (SWORD) (2): Requisite: (Sword). Basic armed martial arts weapon knowledge with _____. DX 13 or better is required. A figure with this skill does one extra hit of damage whenever he fights with a______ in armed regular combat. NOTE: To use this skill - or any of the higher-level Unarmed Combat skills — a figure MUST be unarmored, or wearing cloth armor only

1. Okay, so right away we would have tackle the problem of: For unarmored figures only prohibition. Works great for bare-chested, loin-cloth wearing, Barbarian-types with Veteran and Warrior Talents; but how can we solve for the pot-helm and plate-armor crowd?

IQ 12: ARMED COMBAT II (2). An intermediate level of ability. Prerequisite: A.C. I and a DX of 14 or better. Like A.C. I, except that you do two extra hits of damage with your _____ in armed combat. You also have the ability to "shield-rush" without a shield - you throw your foe, knocking him down. Use the shield-rush rules

2. So what would this be,.... +2 Weapon Damage, and the ability to "Body-Slam" your opponent with your weapon for a knock-down ?

IQ 14: ARMED COMBAT III (2). Prerequisite: A.C. II. A figure with this ability is a master of the ______. He does 3 extra hits of damage when he strikes with weapon, and can knock a foe down as described under A.C. II. Because of his great skill, his opponent must make a 5-die roll vs. DX to avoid falling (4 dice if the opponent has more than twice the ST he does). A figure with this talent may attempt to "slam" any foe whose ST is less than 3 times his own. He can also choose the "defend" option bare-handed.

3. That's fairly straight-forward, until we get to the part about the "defend bare-handed", that will require a counter-ability of equal merit as a substitute bonus ability.

IQ 14: ARMED COMBAT IV (2). A higher level of mastery. A figure with this ability has a natural "eyes-behind" (like the spell) at all times. His side hexes count as front hexes, and his rear hex counts as a side hex. If he takes the "defend" option bare-handed, you must roll FIVE dice to hit him. Prerequisite: A.C. III, DX 15 or more

4. Okay, if you don't like "eyes-behind", try something like "Combat Sensitivity" or "Combat Awareness", but I would avoid the temptation to use Spidey-Sense ;-). Again, we run into the "defend bare-handed" quandary, but if we answered it correctly in A.C. III, and enhancement here should take care of itself as obvious.

IQ 14: ARMED COMBAT V (3). A still higher level of skill with the ____. An attacker must roll FOUR dice to hit this figure in normal combat - SIX if he is dodging, SEVEN if he is defending. If a figure with A.C. V strikes an armed foe and does more than 3 hits of damage, that foe is hit on a nerve and automatically drops his weapon. Prerequisites: A.C. IV, DX 16 or better.

5. Self-evident.

Okay,... So, am I saying this is the ultimate answer? No.

What I saying is I think as a routine-methodology and working-philosophy in solving problems for TFT - or creating enhancements, for that matter - it is best to:

1. Determine WHAT we have as the most-similar preexisting rules.

2. Determine WHERE we want to go by expanding outwards from the established internal sample rule base, and NOT by trying to superimpose outside rules onto an internal situation, and thereby "forcing" rules into the game.

3. Determine HOW we can get to our desired goal, as ergonomically and naturally as possible - and create as little disturbance or friction as possible to the existing rules-set, in order to retain and preserve the same form, feel, flow, flavor, and function of TFT.

What this method/philosophy tries to create more than anything is a PASTICHE of SJ's original rules-set, by attempting to copy the underline mind-set by MIRRORING as much as possible, and adding distortion as change only to achieve a specific engineered effect.

If it helps, great! If not... then it simply is not a method that works for you; that's all.

Thoughts?

JK

[Kirk]

Great analysis, Jim!

Equal to the power invested in me, I award you a PhD. in TFT! ;)
(Anyone with a math or programming background will have no problem with that statement. :0 )

To me, TFT is a thinking man's RPG, simple in its complexity, complex in its simplicity.

*Any* changes of consequence need to be undertaken as if it were an engineering project or moon shot, analyzing fundamentals of what makes the game a stand-out amongst its peers. It is not a task for neophytes or the inexperienced, the ignorant or the ego driven.

And like some other phenomena, it may have grown beyond the initial seeds of conception by its author, fundamentally a sentient work that can move beyond its beginnings, without the need for tampering or major alteration, utilizing only the power of any imagination that finds it.

[Chris Rice]

I've never really liked the weapon Talents that much as they are. For common weapons I'd rather the Talent allowed specific things like:

Defence (without the Talent for the weapon/shield you can't choose the Defend option)

Aimed blows/Sweepng blows

And then perhaps a master level of the Talent that allowed other heroic feats such as deathblows, multiple attacks, never drops weapon, stuff like that. I know the Fencing Talent has already gone part way down that route but I'd like to see the idea rolled out across the other weapon Talents.