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Old 11-24-2013, 11:36 AM   #1
Onkl
 
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Default SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

Hi guys

Could you please help me out with a few gun related questions I have for a realistic SIV campaign.

Did the SEALs have access to ammunition for their personal firearms other than Full Metal Jacket?
Jacketed Hollow-Point?
rmor Piercing Hardcore?
Do any of the other modifiers from High Tech apply, eg. Match Grade Ammunition?

What if a LMG user decides to only take the belts of his LMG along, ditching the box or can in which it is usually carried. I couldn't find a rule... but guess that this would give -1 to Bulk. Is there a rule? What do you think of my solution?

Cheers

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Old 11-24-2013, 12:05 PM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
Did the SEALs have access to ammunition for their personal firearms other than Full Metal Jacket?
Jacketed Hollow-Point?
rmor Piercing Hardcore?
Do any of the other modifiers from High Tech apply, eg. Match Grade Ammunition?

What if a LMG user decides to only take the belts of his LMG along, ditching the box or can in which it is usually carried. I couldn't find a rule... but guess that this would give -1 to Bulk. Is there a rule? What do you think of my solution?
Who knows what the guys personally brought over or had smuggled from the States but JHP was not only against doctrine (and international agreements but was generally considered unreliable in the autoloading firearms of the time period.

AP or even APHC would be possible but the enemy seldom provided armored targets to shoot at.

Match grade ammo may have been available for snipers.

For anyone trying to carry an LMG without a belt-holder the applicable rules would probably be roll v. DX or trip over the dangling belt while walking and auto-failure as the mud-smeared rounds jam in the feeder.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Match grade ammo may have been available for snipers.
Probably was: the British provided it for snipers pretty regularly in the latter stages of WWII, and given the amount of money the US was spending in Vietnam, the cost would have been trivial.
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Old 11-24-2013, 01:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

Yes, M118LR was available, but M2 and M80 ball was more common. I can't remember when M118 went from .30-06 to 7.62N, but Lake City used the same loading machine line.
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Old 11-24-2013, 05:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

M118 was type specified in 1963/1964.

M118LR is the Matchking hollowpoint bullet and wasn't adopted till the early 90s I think.
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Old 11-24-2013, 06:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

You're right, M118 was the 173gr match variant for both calibers, the same bullet used until the Matchking was adopted.

Last edited by ronom; 11-24-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
AP or even APHC would be possible but the enemy seldom provided armored targets to shoot at.
Was there personal armor capable of stopping even .223 in Vietnam? State of the art would be something like nylon with a steel insert, far as I know.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
For anyone trying to carry an LMG without a belt-holder the applicable rules would probably be roll v. DX or trip over the dangling belt while walking and auto-failure as the mud-smeared rounds jam in the feeder.
I think the rules would depend on exactly how much ammo is used and how it's carried on the body. Assuming they're using M60s, I can do some quick math: a 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge case is 0.473 inches wide at its widest point. The M13 links hold the rounds very close together in the belt with a small gap, and eyeballing it I'll round up to one round in the link taking up 0.50 inches of space; this makes two rounds take up approximately one inch in length.

A 200 round belt would therefore be 100 inches, or 8.3 feet. Considering that most soldiers aren't 8'4, this belt would have quite a bit of length dragging on the ground at the bottom and it would get worse as the gun was lowered from a firing position; if you drop the gun, all bets are off. The GM determines how many cartridges have touched the ground during firing, considers the terrain, and applies a Malf penalty that applies at his decided round count in the belt. The rounds that don't touch anything are fine, but when the gun reaches Cartridge Number X, the Malf penalty hits and it could be pretty severe (all the way down to Malf 14 or 15 if the belt dragged along some heavy dirt, maybe even worse if it dipped in mud). Of course, the soldier should be given a chance (either at the player's specific request or a Perception role by the GM) to spot the dirty rounds and think about what to do about it.

There's more problems, of course. The aforementioned tripping (though this should only apply if the soldier is moving quickly; it would get annoying pretty fast to have Sgt. Rock constantly stumbling like a Stooge during the march to the objective), as well as the risk of the belt tangling or getting caught in something. That's a damn big problem if you're humping the gun through the jungle.

The only way to prevent ALL of these problems would be to use a very short belt, along the lines of 20 or 30 rounds at the most. Which makes you question bringing an M60 along in the first place.

Belt boxes are there for a good reason, champ.

Quote:
Was there personal armor capable of stopping even .223 in Vietnam? State of the art would be something like nylon with a steel insert, far as I know.
Kevlar was actually invented in 1965, but obviously it's highly unlikely that any Viet Cong would have gotten their hands on any of it and it didn't even get commercially used until 1971, only four years before the end of the Vietnam War, and it was first used to replace steel in car tires rather than as armor.

There IS Soviet body armor dating back to World War II, consisting of 2mm steel plates and weighing 7.7 lbs. This is the most likely kind of body armor that a guerrilla would be liable to cook up, but that doesn't really match the Viet Cong's style: fast, stealthy attacks. 8 pounds of steel that only protects against 9mm submachine guns won't do you much good against a rifle.

Lightweight nylon armor with ceramic trauma plates that could protect against .30 caliber rifle rounds first appeared in 1967, but that was again an American invention and even captures would be highly unlikely among the communist forces. No, you're most likely to be shooting at someone in simple fatigues or "pajamas" that provide DR 0. And a chest carrier full of loaded AK mags provides almost zero protection and will be sliced through by a 5.56mm round like butter.

Last edited by chitoryu12; 11-24-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
Did the SEALs have access to ammunition for their personal firearms other than Full Metal Jacket?
Except for Tracer, no. AP (but not APHC) was used in machine guns, primarily the M2HB, but not in the smaller calibres. Absolutely no HP. Since the SEALs did not make use of sniper rifles to any measurable degree, Match would also be unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
What if a LMG user decides to only take the belts of his LMG along, ditching the box or can in which it is usually carried. I couldn't find a rule... but guess that this would give -1 to Bulk.
While this reduces bulk, I'd be wary to improve Bulk (the GURPS stat), as that is primarily governed by overall length and weight, and you're not changing that. I probably wouldn't allow it. What you do get is a penalty on Malf. (Tactical Shooting, p. 65).

Perhaps I should explain why many gunners (SEALs in Vietnam, pp. 19-21) carried belts without containers nevertheless: They are easier to carry. Spare belt boxes and drums are awkward to carry, while belts slung Pancho Villa-style are reasonably comfortable. In other words, you reduce the bulk of the reloads, not the Bulk of the gun. That was worth something to many (but by far not all) gunners. Squads with access to speciality load-bearing equipment like the Stonerman Vest (SEALs in Vietnam, p. 22) often preferred the containers. On vintage photos, you often see a wild mix of loose belts, boxes, and drums . . .

Cheers

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Last edited by HANS; 11-25-2013 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: SEALs in Vietnam: Firearms related questions

Thank you very much for your answers.

Lock and Load!

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