I need tips on how to win a fight in fantasy.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

As a term of art in GURPS, "knockdown" specifically refers to the effects of Knockdown and Stunning (hence referencing that part from Basic)

Knockdown and Stunning are separate things though. That's why B420 uses separate words:

On a failure, you’re stunned;
see Effects of Stun, below.

You fall prone (if you weren’t already),
and if you were holding anything, you drop it.
This effect is called “knockdown,”

"drop what you hold and fall prone" is basically what knockdown is, and it seems to be a possible result of slams even when they don't damage you at all, much like you can be stunned (without knockdown) by Affliction.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Plane

Knockdown and Stunning are separate things though. That's why B420 uses separate words:

On a failure, you’re stunned;
see Effects of Stun, below.

You fall prone (if you weren’t already),
and if you were holding anything, you drop it.
This effect is called “knockdown,”

"drop what you hold and fall prone" is basically what knockdown is, and it seems to be a possible result of slams even when they don't damage you at all, much like you can be stunned (without knockdown) by Affliction.

I would interpret the rules so the "knockdown" effect mentioned, where the enemy falls prone, drops what he is holding, and is Stunned, only happens if the normal rules for damage enforces that roll (HP/2, or special locations).

So while a Slam knocks the enemy down, he does not necessarily drop things, nor is he Stunned, unless you deal enough damage to warrant the Knockdown roll!
However in a Slam, I would rule that Torso is his, and I'll roll a sublocation die to see if damage is taken to Vitals (1 in 6). If it is, it more easily forces the side effects to being knocked on your backside.

And for the subject at hand, if the master swordsman is Shield Slammed, you can hope do to enough damage for force the Knockdown roll. If it fails, he is Stunned and drops his sword. Otherwise, he is just on his back, but still suffers Ground Fighting penalties until he is up again.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Boge

I found this:

MA101 -
The special rules for melee weapons in this chapter apply
only when you have a ready weapon. Once you take a Ready
maneuver to draw a weapon – or make a Fast-Draw roll to
do the same – it stays ready until:
• You lose it. This happens if you deliberately drop it,
throw it, or give it away; a foe uses a grab or grapple to make
you drop it (see Unarmed Combat, p. B370); you parry a
weapon heavy enough to break or knock aside your own
(see Parrying Heavy Weapons, p. B376); an opponent successfully
breaks or knocks away your weapon (see Striking
at Weapons, p. B400); you suffer knockdown (see
Knockdown and Stunning, p. B420); or a critical hit or critical
miss disarms you (see Critical Success and Failure,
p. B556).

I can't find the same thing in the basic books, which would be better for me, but this helps. He would be prone with an unready weapon, requiring him to take a turn to ready, and another turn to get to his knees...plenty of time to land a blow or two while he's suffering defense penalties.

OK to be honest I've looked and I can't find a reference to being knocked prone* unreadying your weapon!

GURPS has a bit of a habit for putting little hyper specific rules like that in tangentially related subjects, so it might appear in the sections on posture, falling, readying and combat situations rules. But I'll be damned if I can find it.


NoW for me it's not a problem, I'm the GM so that's what I rule, but in terms of a pg ref sorry I can't help



*as opposed be being "Knocked down" as result of failing a knockdown/stun check from an injury that warrants it.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

OK to be honest I've looked and I can't find a reference to being knocked prone* unreadying your weapon!

GURPS has a bit of a habit for putting little hyper specific rules like that in tangentially related subjects, so it might appear in the sections on posture, falling, readying and combat situations rules. But I'll be damned if I can find it.


No for me it's not problem I'm the GM so that's what I rule, but in terms of a pg ref sorry I can't help



*as opposed be being "Knocked down" as result of failing a knockdown/stun check from an injury that warrants it.

If you for some reason fall prone - trip over an obstacle or slip on threacherous ground -. and an enemy instantly attacks you, I find it reasonable tha a weapon you are holding becomes unready - actually you might even plausibly drop it.

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

If you for some reason fall prone - trip over an obstacle or slip on threacherous ground -. and an enemy instantly attacks you, I find it reasonable tha a weapon you are holding becomes unready - actually you might even plausibly drop it.

If not your weapon, you yourself would be unready to defend having just face planted on the ground. Can you gather yourself within that second (or less) to prepare for a defense?

But, I'm not the GM so my own judgment won't suffice here. I need actual book rulings to have any argument on what should happen.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

If you for some reason fall prone - trip over an obstacle or slip on threacherous ground -. and an enemy instantly attacks you, I find it reasonable tha a weapon you are holding becomes unready - actually you might even plausibly drop it.

One point of comparison would be major wounds vs judo throws.

Major Wound: make a HT roll: failure means falling and stunning
Judo Throw: make an activce defense: failure means throwing and then making a HT roll to see if the throw stuns you.

M101 mentions something interesting under the first bullet "you lose it"

you suffer knockdown (see Knockdown and Stunning, p. B420);

If it required BOTH knockdown AND stunning to make a drop, why only specify knockdown?

I like the system of tracking Grip CP and going negative means you drop the weapon, then we could talk about stuff which should potentially diminish Physical Control Points (PCP) on the weapon.

TG13 had "the shock from pain or injury both count as reducing Grip CP, though shock is momentary" so that's one way an injury could potentially disarm someone even if it wasn't enough damage to be a major wound (although it would have to be weak to begin with) and if someone took damage from a fall, that could be another way, like if when you slammed someone and knocked them back a yard, there was an open window behind them.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

If you for some reason fall prone - trip over an obstacle or slip on threacherous ground -. and an enemy instantly attacks you, I find it reasonable tha a weapon you are holding becomes unready - actually you might even plausibly drop it.

I agree, it just I'm sure there was a specific rule for it

Originally Posted by Boge

If not your weapon, you yourself would be unready to defend having just face planted on the ground. Can you gather yourself within that second (or less) to prepare for a defense?

But, I'm not the GM so my own judgment won't suffice here. I need actual book rulings to have any argument on what should happen.

Well don't forget that there are hefty penalties to both attack and defence when prone even if you have a ready weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Plane

I like the system of tracking Grip CP and going negative means you drop the weapon, then we could talk about stuff which should potentially diminish Physical Control Points (PCP) on the weapon.

For what it's worth, I think tracking Grip CP and referred control bookkeeping need to be taken out behind the woodshed and put down. These were fiddly ideas that I removed with prejudice from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling because they added little to gameplay at the expense of very much fuss. No Fun.

[Plane]

I love both Fantastic Cole and Fiddly Cole stuff, as some gamers enjoy the fussy-crunch and some enjoy the simple-fun. "Not all grapples are equal" resulting in "not all grips are equal" just feels right.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

M101 mentions something interesting under the first bullet "you lose it"

you suffer knockdown (see Knockdown and Stunning, p. B420);

If it required BOTH knockdown AND stunning to make a drop, why only specify knockdown?

Because “knockdown” specifically refers to the state you reach upon failing the Knockdown and Stunning roll. Note it only references those rules, rather than any of the other cases (knockback, throws, forced posture changes during grappling, sweeps, certain failed “balance” rolls, etc) where the character is knocked down into a prone position. Indeed, I challenge you to find any official GURPS 4e publication that uses the word “knockdown” without referencing B420’s Knockdown and Stunning.