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Old 02-23-2018, 11:02 AM   #551
JLV
 
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Location: Arizona
Default Re: Magic Backlash and Industrial Magic

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
A very good point. I bought 7th Edition Rune Quest and really admired how it had different types of magic.

Having a section in the GM book that talks about the mysterious magics and artifacts left over from the Ancients / Mnorren / Fey would be cool!

Warm regards, Rick.
I've often thought that there should be three different LEVELS of magic; which I characterize as:

Cantrips: Minor magic that everyone can learn; does things like make a little light (about a candle worth), give a little drink (a cup's worth), etc.;

Spells: the existing spells from Wizard (*not* for the most part, Advanced Wizard). Basically any spell which has an immediate effect on a limited area. Only Wizards could learn this type of spell;

Ritual Magic: much more complex spells capable of reaching across great distances, affecting things for long periods of time, or having an enormous effect on a limited area (volcanic eruption). This kind of magic would be time-consuming and resource consuming (it's a ritual, not a "spell"). Again, only Wizards could learn these, and they would generally be higher IQ level.

In a way, the above structure is similar to what you're talking about, but accomplishes three main purposes:

One, it eliminates industrial magic (unless you can develop a ritual of LIGHT CITY, which, as a GM, I'd make...difficult), which, I agree, takes some of the mystique out of magic in a classic fantasy game;

Two, it still permits non-Wizard players to fool around with magic, but only in a very limited way. Still, cantrips might be surprisingly useful to a clever player, and;

Three, it makes things like PENTAGRAM or SUMMON DEMON actual rituals, which has always been more in keeping with my personal understanding of the literature on these kinds of things. It also reconciles how magic items are made with general magic.

Rituals should (and in the case of magic item creation spells already DO) take a long time to complete (compared to mere spells, anyway), but it is a much stronger form of magic since, in reward for the time and materials spent, the effects are either permanent (or very long lasting), significantly greater, or take effect over much greater distances (miles/leagues/kilometers as opposed to basically "line of sight"). Spells, of course, would be played as they are now. Cantrips would be played as spells (and even Wizards would know a few -- they were probably a beginner's practice tool in the first place), but would, of course, probably not be used by them much. The old Dragon magazine had a series of two or three articles on Cantrips way back when that would make a good starting point for a few cantrips.

Rituals might also be a clever way to work in "clerical" magic, in the form of healing rituals, naming ceremonies (if you want something like "True Names" to play a role in your game), blessings (and curses, for that matter), etc.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:13 PM   #552
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: A Wizard's staff with Quarterstaff talent.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi all,
On the Brainiac TFT forums there was some debate about if a wizard with the Quarterstaff talent and the Staff spell was too powerful.

Let's say Bonkem is a wizard with:
ST 11, DX 13, IQ 8 - Quarterstaff (2), Staff Spell (1) ... (mIQ cost in parenthesis).

This figure is doing 2d+2 damage for spending 3 memory. This is awesome compared to other starting figures. The combination does not require any fatigue ST to be spent in combat so he has ~9 fST and 5 memory worth of spells as a bonus.

Things get even worse when Bonkem gets Staff of Power.

I tried a lot of things to fix this and I eventually decided that this combo (plus most other spells that add to damage of other weapons) do damage separately. So the 1d+2 from the quarterstaff is done (with armor protecting) and then the staff spell shocks the victim for 1 die of damage (with armor protecting). Effectively armor is doubled verses this combo.

So the combo is very effective vs. figures with no armor, but it gets much less useful against people with heavier armor.

This works well. The bonus comes up often enough that it is worth taking Quarterstaff talent, but most of the time it is not overwhelmingly powerful. I've used it for many years in my campaign and it works well.

Warm regards, Rick.
I agree that having staff damage be separate for armor makes sense, and it is fun to have that combo exist, but I also think it does throw off the balance of 32-point fighters, being worth a bit more than +2 attributes without requiring even a +1 IQ to get. That is, in arena duels, this character hits like someone with a ST 14 Great Hammer, and will usually knock opponents down and almost certainly give them -2 DX and likely get them to 3 ST for -3 DX on the first hit - they'll tend to dominate all other 32-point fighters without spells.

Seems to me it would be fairer to just use the greater of the damage the weapon or staff spell provides (you could possibly roll both for each hit, if you like) or give +1 to weapon damage (maybe +2 or +1 die for Staff of Power).

Or just do it the way you do, and just note it's powerful but not care... though one wonders then if people in your game worlds know it's so strong, and are there then training programs and military units etc that frequently train people this way? After all, there is also:

Staff Infantry (non-wizard)
ST 11, DX 13, IQ 8 - Quarterstaff (1), Staff Spell (3)

Only takes one more mIQ point, and you can train non-wizards to do it. You also don't need to equip them with more than a wood pole.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:21 PM   #553
Skarg
 
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Default Re: You do NOT engage me! :-D

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Skarg, everyone.
Yes, people saying "you don't engage me!" comes up rarely enough that it has little impact on the normal flow of combat. That is the reason I gave the opponents +2 DX or +2 damage. I want this tactic to be considered dangerous enough to KEEP it a rare event. I seriously considered making it a +2 DX _AND_ +2 damage. This would speed things up a bit since it removes a decision - the opponent would just roll the dice when someone ignores them.
My version often results in a +2 or +4 to-hit, but the damage bonus doesn't match another effect in the system, and I don't see an in-universe reason for it. Also just receiving an extra attack seems like a very dangerous disincentive to me if the enemy has a weapon that can hurt you.


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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
We usually just have a pencil or finger point to which hexes someone is moving thru. So in my game, I tend to not worry about the moving figure's facing mid-movement.
The hexes moved in my version are enough to imply the facing, so a finger gesture would still give that detail. (I like that it gives an effect that matches the situation.)
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:40 PM   #554
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Forgetting Talents --> Very gamey.

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Talents cost the same, regardless of the character's experience
OK, that is quite different to mIQ. So buying a talent is expensive in attribute points early on but cheap as chips for an experienced character? That's going to encourage the one-talent starting halberdier and its ilk. How much does it cost to buy a talent, and how many experience points does a 32 point character start with?
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:45 PM   #555
Rick_Smith
 
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Default You do know that my system has not been proposed?

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
"mIQ" is not an issue. In my system, there are only three attributes, IQ, ST, DX. Adding in additional attributes (and that's all mIQ, fST, and whatever the DX variant is, really are) is not something I'm willing to do. ...
Hi everyone.
HI JLV. So you have said. Many times.

However, you obviously do not know my superscript system and your dismissive characterization of it is not quite correct. They are not three new attributes, but modifiers to existing attributes. PIETY (PY) (which I've also added for example) is a new attribute.

In my posts I've used the terminology mIQ as an abbreviation for memory and fST for an abbreviation for fatigue strength. I think that is a useful addition to new TFT. It will make the rules clearer. For example, when you lose 2 ST after berserking... is it damage or fST lost? I honestly do not know what was intended. If my nomenclature was used, the answer would be obvious.

You will notice I have not suggested my superscript system for consideration in the new TFT, despite many posts by myself on how to improve new TFT. I think that the chances of my system being used are zero. For that matter, I think that the chances of your system being used, are also zero.

Steve Jackson has said that he is going to publish TFT as it was, with some minor tweaks. I've suggested the mIQ cost of talents might be halved. THAT is a minor tweak which I think is unlikely to happen, but is barely possible.

Most of the debate between you and David is because your description of your system left out the rule, that buying more talents does not increase your attribute total. If you review what was written, I think you would find that if David knew that from the beginning, then the posts back and forth between you would be much shorter.

Anyway, you are of course welcome to continue your strident put downs of my work, but I gently remind you that I've not proposed them for new TFT. I admit I would be happier if your 'summary' of them was more accurate.

Regards, Rick.
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:53 PM   #556
Rick_Smith
 
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Default JLV's suggested system - Clarify?

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
OK, that is quite different to mIQ. So buying a talent is expensive in attribute points early on but cheap as chips for an experienced character? That's going to encourage the one-talent starting halberdier and its ilk. How much does it cost to buy a talent, and how many experience points does a 32 point character start with?
Hi David, JLV, everyone.
Let us say that a 1 mIQ talent costs an attribute worth of exp. If that is true then you would want to buy TONNES of talents early, before buying up your attributes.

If the amount of experience to buy a talent is fixed (say 500 exp / mIQ of the talent), then your guess would be right on. People would pump up their attributes early, and then pick up talent after talent once getting experience is easier.

I don't really think Jeff has given us enough information to intelligently discuss his system. JLV, would you like to weigh in with some more details?

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 02-23-2018 at 05:19 PM. Reason: fixed grammar.
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:10 PM   #557
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: A Wizard's staff with Quarterstaff talent.

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I agree that having staff damage be separate for armor makes sense, ...

Seems to me it would be fairer to just use the greater of the damage the weapon or staff spell provides (you could possibly roll both for each hit, if you like) or give +1 to weapon damage (maybe +2 or +1 die for Staff of Power).

Or just do it the way you do, and just note it's powerful but not care ...
Hi Skarg,
In my campaign if you include shields, most people who are fighting for a living have at least 3 points of armor. So the +1 die for the staff is pretty marginal. (I would say the most common armor is leather armor and large shield for 4 points, but 3 points is common, and you do see 2 (or 5) points of armor fairly often.) But in my campaign, it is very rare to see people running around without protection.

But sometimes you will come across some wolves (stops 1) or a wizard with only two points of armor, so the combo is occasionally more useful.

By the way, in my campaign small shields are fairly rare. If a person is going to give up an entire hand for a shield, they want it to stop more than one hit. I suspect that what ever combo is optimum depends a bit on the campaign's 'group think' about what makes sense for weapons and armor.

***

However, you have overlooked the strongest argument for my system. It is LOGICAL. If a Staff spell adds a die of damage to a stick, it ALSO adds a die of damage to a staff & quarterstaff or to a staff & club. My system uses the spell as written, but has an extra rule that kicks in when the staff is added to a wooden weapon. To me, keeping that +1 die of damage is pretty basic to what the spell is supposed to do.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 02-23-2018 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Added last paragraph
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:45 PM   #558
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Cantrips, spells and ritual magic.

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I've often thought that there should be three different LEVELS of magic; which I characterize as: ...
<Cantrips: Spells: Ritual Magic: >

In a way, the above structure is similar to what you're talking about, but accomplishes three main purposes:

One, it eliminates industrial magic (unless you can develop a ritual of LIGHT CITY, which, as a GM, I'd make...difficult), which, I agree, takes some of the mystique out of magic in a classic fantasy game;
You don't need a Light City ritual, just a Light magic item. If a Light item costs less than 5 months of oil, you should see a lot of magic items popping up. Wouldn't building a magic item be ritual magic?

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Two, it still permits non-Wizard players to fool around with magic, but only in a very limited way. Still, cantrips might be surprisingly useful to a clever player, and;

Three, it makes things like PENTAGRAM or SUMMON DEMON actual rituals, which has always been more in keeping with my personal understanding of the literature on these kinds of things. It also reconciles how magic items are made with general magic.
I don't think that anything forces pentagrams or summon demons to be rituals. Of course you could make them rituals in your system.

Bringing in demons is so different from summoned creatures that I added a new type of spell: Invocations. Summon creatures are described in one section of my rules and invocations are in another. The rules are tidier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Rituals should ... take a long time to complete (compared to mere spells, anyway), but it is a much stronger form of magic. ... The old Dragon magazine had a series of two or three articles on Cantrips way back when that would make a good starting point for a few cantrips.
Cantrips in D&D were to allow wizards spells that were not forgotten once cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Rituals might also be a clever way to work in "clerical" magic, in the form of healing rituals, naming ceremonies (if you want something like "True Names" to play a role in your game), blessings (and curses, for that matter), etc.
I already have clerical magic that I'm very happy with, and sometimes it does use rituals.

My feelings on the above:
-- Cantrips: I like magic being rare and strange so I likely wouldn't use cantrips at all. That said, some people have little magical knacks, but they are weird genetic (???) things and not tidy little spell lists which people can master.

This is not an argument against these. If you look at RuneQuest 7th edition, they have several forms of magic which use the same rule mechanics but come off very different in how they are used in societies and by the wizards themselves. This to me is ideal. A low set of rules overhead gives a wide variety of types of magic.

I think it would be possible to make a spell list of cantrips which are different enough from regular spells to be interesting.

-- Rituals: Yes! I use ritual magic a lot. (Building big rune lines definitely counts.) I've not web published a lot of my ritual magic because it tends to be less well defined with more GM fiat going on. But since one of my goals is to make magic ... more magical, I'm OK with that.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 02-23-2018 at 04:59 PM. Reason: spelling error.
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:07 PM   #559
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Cantrips, spells and ritual magic.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- Cantrips: I like magic being rare and strange so I likely wouldn't use cantrips at all.
Two thumbs up here. Please, nothing even resembling cantrips! Spells are spells are spells; there is no need to make it any more complicated. As a famous artist once told me, "Sometimes, simple is better."
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:40 PM   #560
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Cantrips, spells and ritual magic.

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Two thumbs up here. Please, nothing even resembling cantrips! Spells are spells are spells; there is no need to make it any more complicated. ..."
Hi Everyone, Shostak.
In fairness to JLV, I think he is not suggesting this as a addition to new TFT basic books, but more as a possible expansion after new TFT is published. Perhaps JLV will pitch the idea to SJG after TFT comes out?

Warm regards, Rick.
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