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Old 06-06-2016, 06:58 AM   #21
Anders
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I didn't realize at first, but the damage bonus is up to +2 per die, not just up to +2 as I thought. I have an archer with ST 11 that does just an extra +2. I have another character with ST 17 that is doing 5d damage swing with a fine bastard sword and weapon mastery. And that's not to mention the parrying bonus that melee gets as well. I actually felt really bad for another player that was standing on a building shooting with her bow every 3 turns doing 1d-1 damage while I was rapid striking multiple enemies, killing them both with one swing each.
However - and my players have a hard time understanding this - you can use the bow from a distance. There's a reason people didn't use bows in melee combat.

Now, if you add a heap of advantages (notably Heroic Archer) and skills (notably Fast-Draw), you can create an archer who compares better to the sword guy in melee. But it will cost you, because vanilla GURPS is slanted towards realism.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:27 AM   #22
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I didn't realize at first, but the damage bonus is up to +2 per die, not just up to +2 as I thought. I have an archer with ST 11 that does just an extra +2. I have another character with ST 17 that is doing 5d damage swing with a fine bastard sword and weapon mastery. And that's not to mention the parrying bonus that melee gets as well. I actually felt really bad for another player that was standing on a building shooting with her bow every 3 turns doing 1d-1 damage while I was rapid striking multiple enemies, killing them both with one swing each.

I think some in house rules for this are definitely necessary.
This is more an issue of Thrust vs Swing, honestly, as you see the same thing with rapiers, spears, etc. Of course, you've got an apples-to-oranges situation set up here, with ST 11 going up against ST 17 - you should be comparing ST 17 to ST 17. Given, that's not much better, as at ST 17 with WM and skill at DX+2 you're comparing 1d+4 (2d) to 3d+5 (4d+1). Bringing in the weapons, that greatsword does 1d+7 (3d) imp and 3d+8 (5d+1) cut, while a reflex bow just does 1d+7 (longbow only 1d+6; these are 3d and 3d-1, respectively) imp. Optionally, you might allow characters with Weapon Master to pick up another trait (I'd eyeball it at [5]) that bases their WM bonus damage on their swing damage for thrusting attacks, but only for weapons that lack swing damage (some exceptions can be made here - a spear can technically do swing damage when wielded with Staff, but should probably be able to benefit). That means an ST 17 swordsman does 3d imp and 5d+1 cut, while an ST 17 bowman does 4d imp.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I also feel that Bow being Hard just isn't right. I have next to no experience shooting a bow, but I bought one last year and shoot it every now and again. I can shoot a head sized target from about 6 yards away and hit it probably 80% of the time. Assuming the bow has an accuracy of 3 along with 2 extra turns aiming, that's +5 to my skill -3 for the range and -5 for the "head" and hitting at 80% would mean I'd have a raw skill of 15 or so. That's highly unlikely for a newbie bow user. I find it rather easy to shoot an aimed bow at a target 20ft away.
That's actually fairly consistent with the rules from Tactical Shooting. There, you get +1 for each of No Risk to Self, No Risk to Others, and No Political/Military Stake. A good indoor range gives between +1 and +4 (I'd eyeball each of these as lack of wind, good lighting, high contrast, and optimal target height). Knowing the Range to the target is good for a further +3. That's good for up to +10. When using Terminal Aim (+Acc+2) and All Out Attack (+1) with that +10, a headshot (which should be more like -4, combining the Face and Skull hit locations) at 6 yards (-3) means you're at a total of +Acc+6. Arguably, using a bow for which you exceed the needed ST might function as Braced, for a further +1. With an Acc 3 bow, you're at either +9 or +10, meaning you could manage effective skill 15 from as low as skill 5 (defaulting from DX 10). Add in some Dabbler to offset any of the above that don't actually apply, and you're good to go.

Note also that, even if you were to drop the difficulty of Bow to Easy, that's only good for another +1. As another note, while GURPS doesn't do this by default, it may be appropriate for a near-miss to instead be interpreted as a hesitation - you don't have a shot, so you don't take a shot, and have to wait until at least next round to try again (this will skew things a bit - if a miss by 2 or less means you don't actually shoot, calculating hit probability off of the shots you actually take is going to give you an effective +2 to skill).

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
At the least it should be adjusted for gameplay balancing, unless I'm just missing a whole ton of crap which I probably am. I get that at range you're at less harm, but GMs don't want to kill you off anyway, so there really isn't any harm in these games.
Skills are typically based on how hard they are to use in reality, not on how effective they actually are. A bow (DX/A) is harder to use than a crossbow or rifle (DX/E), but not as difficult as a sling (DX/H).
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:28 AM   #23
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

A ST 11 WM archer will do 1d+2 damage with a composite bow, 1d+4 with WM, 1d+5 (2) pi with fine bodkin arrow. not 1d-1.

At ST13 (or ST11 and 2 level of strongbow perks), you go to 1d+6(2) pi

Add heroic archer, and you are shooting every round with Acc bonus.

Of course, the ST-17 WM swordsman do 3 time the damage twice a round... but not at range.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:36 AM   #24
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
I've recently had a few characters with this advantage and it's definitely not balanced between ranged and melee.

I didn't realize at first, but the damage bonus is up to +2 per die, not just up to +2 as I thought. I have an archer with ST 11 that does just an extra +2. I have another character with ST 17 that is doing 5d damage swing with a fine bastard sword and weapon mastery. And that's not to mention the parrying bonus that melee gets as well. I actually felt really bad for another player that was standing on a building shooting with her bow every 3 turns doing 1d-1 damage while I was rapid striking multiple enemies, killing them both with one swing each.

I think some in house rules for this are definitely necessary.
Well, first of all, if your archer was ST 17 and, say, had Strong Bow (+2 ST for bows), she'd deal 2d+2 imp with a reflex bow, or 2d+6 imp with Weapon Master. Meanwhile, your ST 17 character should be dealing 3d-1, +3 from his fine bastard sword (two-handed?), and then +6 from weapon master, for a total of 3d+8. That means you deal an average of 27 damage to an unarmored torso, and she deals 26. If she hits the vitals, she deals 39, and if you hit the neck, you'll deal 36.

If your archer wants to rapid strike, she may. A long bow is RoF 1(2). That means she needs one turn to draw, one turn to nock, and then she may attack. But you can fast-draw to reduce that to one turn nocking and attacking. Or you may make a Quick-Shot by applying a -6 (or -3 for heroic archers or weapon masters!) to your roll. You need to make two rolls, one to nock the arrow, the other to fire. This removes yet another second from the readying. Thus, she can fire once per turn.

In principle, with sufficient skill and a sufficiently generous GM, I suppose you could even draw and fire more than one arrow per second, but this is certainly an acceptable speed: You're making several attacks per second, and she's making one per second.

What cinematic skills did she have? Did she have Zen Archery? If she has Zen Archery of, say, 22+, she can afford to do it instantly, without any concentration, she can divide her size/speed/range penalties by 3. That means her shot out to 100 yards is -4, rather than -10.

So, if she's got Fast-Draw, Zen Archery 22 and Archery 22 (say) and ST 17 with Strong Bow, she can draw her arrow, nock it, and fire it all in one second at someone's vitals 100 yards away with a total skill roll of 12 or less, assuming she made her Zen Archery and Fast-Draw rolls, and she'll deal an average of 39 damage, instantly killing her target, most likely.

The problem is not that Weapon Master is too weak, it's all in how you build your character ("Your high ST character does more damage than my low ST character! It's so unfair!") and what sort of situation you put them. Your melee character is better in melee than the archer is, sure, but she's much better up in a tree, 100 yards from her enemy than you are, and she's even rather competitive close up. Archery Masters are not "weak."
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:49 AM   #25
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
The respective ST scores are the most important difference there. I think you are overlooking that factor. There is nothing stopping an archer from maxing ST.

Granted they don't get swing damage, but they will still be doing a respectable amount.
Foot Archery Style is your friend. Spend enough on it (easy w/WM and Heroic archer) and you can buy 3 levels of Arm ST and Strongbow too. That would let you hit an effective level of 19 ST with only 14 basic ST.

Don't overlook the ACC bonus on unaimed shots that Heroic Archer gets you either. A cinematically effective archer is expensive but by no means impossible in the right game.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:23 PM   #26
Harald387
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

It's also worth noting that Weapon Master represents the weapon, not necessarily the primary use skill. A warrior with WM (Katana) gets his benefits whether he's using Broadsword skill or Two-Handed Sword skill, as long as he's using a Katana (and not a Thrusting Broadsword or Flamberge).

A cinematic archer can almost certainly justify using Staff skill to parry with his bow (hell, this might even be somewhat realistic, if a bit fragile) and would get the multiple parry benefits there.

WM (Bow) is wholly worth the 20-point investment.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:47 PM   #27
brianfb
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
tl8 bow : +1 for fine is likely (unless it is a cheap replica)
target at know range : +1 (after the first shot)

!
Where are these rules found?

Thanks,
Brian
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:58 PM   #28
simply Nathan
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
It's also worth noting that Weapon Master represents the weapon, not necessarily the primary use skill. A warrior with WM (Katana) gets his benefits whether he's using Broadsword skill or Two-Handed Sword skill, as long as he's using a Katana (and not a Thrusting Broadsword or Flamberge).
It's always struck me as weird that this is the case and yet the iconic character to have Weapon Master in the Basic Set has Weapon Master (Bow) instead of Weapon Master (Composite Bow)/(Longbow)/(Regular Bow) (not one of which she could wield with her ST 9) or Weapon Master (Short Bow).
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Old 06-06-2016, 10:54 PM   #29
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by simply Nathan View Post
It's always struck me as weird that this is the case and yet the iconic character to have Weapon Master in the Basic Set has Weapon Master (Bow) instead of Weapon Master (Composite Bow)/(Longbow)/(Regular Bow) (not one of which she could wield with her ST 9) or Weapon Master (Short Bow).
I am pretty sure you can choose by weapon or skill. A WM katana gain benefits whatever skills he use his katana with, a WM Two-handed sword with whatever weapon when using that skil.
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Old 06-06-2016, 10:57 PM   #30
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by brianfb View Post
Where are these rules found?

Thanks,
Brian
I don't have my books with me, but iirc High-tech for the rule that tl-8 low tech weapon are usually fine and tactical shooting for the know range bonus. I will check when not on my phone.

Edit : Character p274 for fine quality for TL7 melee weapons (it apply to melee weapons and arrows/bolts only, not the bow/crossbows as written. I misremenbered extending it to ranged muscle-powered weapons. Still, it make sense to extend it).

Last edited by Celjabba; 06-07-2016 at 01:09 AM.
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