Advantages List: Cinematic vs Realistic

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Even people whose lives are not consistently mundane frequently do have lives in which such things might happen. Monster hunters and what not may also have families and friends and relationships. In a lot of the media, they do.

So I'm not exactly disagreeing with your facts, but the implication that these things are irrelevant to adventure gaming seems very wrong.

Yes, but we don't generally have (or even want) rules as detailed as the combat system is for talking to our loved ones. This is considered the province of pure roleplaying in this hobby for the most part.

What would a rule that gave a detailed system for emotionally charged conversational surprises actually add to 99% of GURPS games?

At any rate if such a rule existed it would be trivial to exempt Combat Reflexes. There is, however, a pretty good reason why such rules don't actually exist.

[sir_pudding]

Even if there was such a rule it should probably result in penalties to skills or something rather than seconds of mental stun. Losing turns only matters in combat (or other high-stakes situation where you are using the slow-time combat system).

[Johnny1A.2]

[QUOTE=fartrader;1790738]Combat Reflexes should be marked Cinematic (it is what it is), with the note that it's often allowed in Realistic campaigns to improve the odds of character survival. Otherwise, this list will become varying degrees of Realism and Cinematic-ism. Small difference, I know, but it feels like an important distinction to make, IMO. ;)[/quote[

But that's precisely 'realistic'. There is no hard-and-fast line between realistic and cinemetic, it's a range and most traits, skills, and abilities fall somewhere on it. Even the most cinematic advantage can be overcome in certain theoretical situations, for that matter, and completely realistic abiltiies can still be rare or unusual.

I used to personally know a 100% blind man who could do things that would sound unbelievable. He climbed down in wells to fix plugged pipes, he mowed his own lawn (albeit with a manual, non-powered mechanical mower) by 'feel and sound' and a system of strings and poles he devised to guide himself. He could splice electrical wiring and tape it securely by 'feel'. He safely and reliably babysat small children by himself. He devised a hand-guided tool that he used to clean out the drain pipes from his house from the drainage ditch across the road. He needed some help to find the opening of the pipe in the steep slope, but he could do all the rest himself. That is an incomplete list of some of what he did.

If I hadn't known him myself even I might have trouble believing some of what he did. So my attitude about 'realistic' abilities is modulated by that bit of first-hand experience. If you wrote him as a GURPS character, a lot of people would take one look and say 'cinematic', or at least 'unrealistic'. But he was very real (he died in the 1970s).

I've met plenty of folks who claim to never get hangovers, but I don't believe that's real. If you drink enough, you will get a hangover, that's just the way the human biological processes work with alcohol. High alcohol tolerance, in that it takes a lot to reach that hangover point, is certainly real though.

Yeah, but no hangover is by its very nature a matter of degree. If you don't get hangovers under the vast majority of reasonable and semi-unreasonable circumstances, then you have No Hangovers for practical purposes. If you have to drink so much booze to get a hangover that you verge on alchohol poisoning anyway, you probably have No Hangover.

If you only catch a given disease that most people catch easily when your HT is already down, you're already sick with something else, you're exposed to an exceptionally big dose of the pathogen, and it has to be a freakesh strain of the pathogen to boot, then it's probably safe to say you've got 'Immunity to X disease'.

Realitically, realism is relative.

[Johnny1A.2]

[QUOTE=fartrader;1790738]Combat Reflexes should be marked Cinematic (it is what it is), with the note that it's often allowed in Realistic campaigns to improve the odds of character survival. Otherwise, this list will become varying degrees of Realism and Cinematic-ism. Small difference, I know, but it feels like an important distinction to make, IMO. ;)[/quote[

But that's precisely 'realistic'. There is no hard-and-fast line between realistic and cinemetic, it's a range and most traits, skills, and abilities fall somewhere on it. Even the most cinematic advantage can be overcome in certain theoretical situations, for that matter, and completely realistic abiltiies can still be rare or unusual.

I used to personally know a 100% blind man who could do things that would sound unbelievable. He climbed down in wells to fix plugged pipes, he mowed his own lawn (albeit with a manual, non-powered mechanical mower) by 'feel and sound' and a system of strings and poles he devised to guide himself. He could splice electrical wiring and tape it securely by 'feel'. He safely and reliably babysat small children by himself. He devised a hand-guided tool that he used to clean out the drain pipes from his house from the drainage ditch across the road. He needed some help to find the opening of the pipe in the steep slope, but he could do all the rest himself. That is an incomplete list of some of what he did.

If I hadn't known him myself even I might have trouble believing some of what he did. So my attitude about 'realistic' abilities is modulated by that bit of first-hand experience. If you wrote him as a GURPS character, a lot of people would take one look and say 'cinematic', or at least 'unrealistic'. But he was very real (he died in the 1970s).

I've met plenty of folks who claim to never get hangovers, but I don't believe that's real. If you drink enough, you will get a hangover, that's just the way the human biological processes work with alcohol. High alcohol tolerance, in that it takes a lot to reach that hangover point, is certainly real though.

Yeah, but no hangover is by its very nature a matter of degree. If you don't get hangovers under the vast majority of reasonable and semi-unreasonable circumstances, then you have No Hangovers for practical purposes. If you have to drink so much booze to get a hangover that you verge on alchohol poisoning anyway, you probably have No Hangover.

If you only catch a given disease that most people catch easily when your HT is already down, you're already sick with something else, you're exposed to an exceptionally big dose of the pathogen, and it has to be a freakesh strain of the pathogen to boot, then it's probably safe to say you've got 'Immunity to X disease'.

Realistically, realism is relative.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Realitically, realism is relative.

Nonsense, you need to be strict here.

Any trait that says you can always (and many traits that say you can never) do something is unrealistic. So is any trait that determines whether you can do something on the basis of a die roll (rather than almost deterministically on the basis of thousands of factors). This cut leaves almost no GURPS traits as candidates for "realistic", so we need only concentrate on a few of them to prove that GURPS has no realistic traits at all.

Whadaya mean that wasn't the point of the exercise?

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Another set of traits which might be worth considering in the Cinematic context, are those Exotic or Supernatural traits which can be considered Cinematic (and not exotic/supernatural) with the right genre caveats. For instance, GURPS Action (which is Cinematic Mundane) includes: Breath Holding, Catfall, Higher Purpose and Wild Talent as allowed advantages!
There are also traits like Enhanced Time Sense, Enhanced Tracking, etc. which Gun Fu grants access to in a cinematic game for those with Gunslinger; I think GURPS Martial Arts also gives those with TbAM or WM access to ETS too.

Good idea. I've done this for Action and Martial Arts; I have the first book of the Action series and Martial Arts. I don't have Gun Fu, so if somebody wants to PM me or post the info to the thread, I'll add it to post #108.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you take a person who has never had a hangover and dehydrate them, then give them alcohol poisoning, maybe along with some vasoconstrictors...

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

…no hangover is by its very nature a matter of degree. If you don't get hangovers under the vast majority of reasonable and semi-unreasonable circumstances, then you have No Hangovers for practical purposes. If you have to drink so much booze to get a hangover that you verge on alchohol poisoning anyway, you probably have No Hangover.

Johnny1A.2's take is mine as well.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Isn't Empathy cinematic according to this list?

No, it's not. I did add a caveat that it's "often part of Telepathy power" though.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Johnny1A.2's take is mine as well

I'm not saying that No Hangovers is cinematic, I am saying that the same arguments for making Combat Reflexes cinematic apply to nearly every trait if want. If Combat Reflexes is cinematic because it shouldn't include emotional shock, then No Hangovers is cinematic because it shouldn't include Ice Cream headaches.

[Captain Joy]

EDIT: Last update – 22 August 2014

These are genre convention lists that allow for normally exotic or supernatural advantages to be taken as both mundane and cinematic.

Action (mundane and cinematic, but not exotic nor supernatural) Advantages:
Allowable for mundane characters in a cinematic action game.
Born to Be Wired (GURPS Action 1: Heroes, p. 19: Talent)
Circuit Sense (GURPS Action 1: Heroes, p. 19: Talent)
Craftiness (GURPS Action 1: Heroes, p. 19: Talent)
Driver's Reflexes (GURPS Action 1: Heroes, p. 19: Talent)
Higher Purpose (GURPS Action 1: Heroes, p. 18)

Martial Arts (mundane and cinematic, but not exotic nor supernatural) Advantages:
Allowable for mundane characters in a cinematic martial arts game.
Altered Time Rate (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 42)
Claws (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 42)
Damage Resistance (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 43)
Enhanced Time Sense (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 44)
Forceful Chi (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 47: Talent)
Injury Tolerance (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 45)
Innate Attack (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 45)
Inner Balance (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 47: Talent)
Regeneration (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 47)
Wild Talent (GURPS Martial Arts, p. 49)

[Skarg]

This is a great list to have compiled. Very useful, saves a lot of time when making an into brochure for a campaign or developing characters or a gameworld etc.

I think it's pretty much correct.

I read most of the discussion. A few comments:

* As has been said, there's an important distinction between whether the concept of an advantage is realistic (your table seems correct for this) and whether (or to what degree) the rules mechanics listed are realistic or not.
For example, for Combat Reflexes, it's true that real training and experience does result in some people being better at dodging and responding quickly and reflexively to sudden threats and so on, compared to others. Whether the rules should be tweaked or adjusted or given exceptions is just a quibble about how the rule works, but there definitely is such a difference between people IRL.
Similarly for longevity, the advantage exists (though people may not know they have it or not till they're fairly old...). The ageing rules make seem to be broken (especially if you don't include a realistic onslaught of diseases and chances for health problems), but that's an issue with the ageing (and/or disease and health problem) rules, not with the realism of having a longevity advantage.

* Similarly, I think some of the discussions about degree ("low light tolerance should be limited to +1") must not be coming from a perspective that includes the full range of ability and inability that's out there. That is, I'd say there are very many people with disadvantage versions of advantages. Moreover, in reality there tends to be a wide range rather that advantage/disadvantage/neither.
Examples: Many people can't see very well even in dim light that I have no problem with. Not only are there contortionists, but there's massive variation in how flexible people are, and it varies by body part for each individual. Many adults have major issues with twisting and bending compared to others. Most modern civilians probably have "never been in combat - very likely to be stunned or do nothing if anything violent happens" and/or No Idea How To Fight, etc. Lots of people have varying degrees of Bad Vision, or Hard of Hearing, or UnAlertness.

* It's interesting seeing what some people think is unrealistic.
For example, for the "psionic" advantages Intuition, Empathy, and Danger Sense, it seems to me that even a mundane "realistic" version of these exists, again if you compare to the general population and the many people who have no such thing. Even if you deny any "extra-sensory" input, there definitely exist many people who relate to the world and make their decisions based on their intuition and empathy and danger sense, and for whom that is very realistic and useful. For such people, people who _don't_ do that seem to have major disadvantages (they might use terms such as borderline autistic, Ausberger's syndrome, severely left-brained, socially clueless, no common sense, clueless men, people with no body language skills, unintuitive, lack of empathy, foolish), and generally they don't think they have psionic powers - by living this way all their lives, they are very good at reading subtle signs that others don't without even thinking about it. Conversely, people who are logic oriented and "in their heads" may only perceive and make decisions based on their thinking, and so not notice or respond to subtle clues that someone tuned into their habits of intuition or danger sense of empathy would immediately feel. That could be entirely explained by thinking habits, without invoking any psychic abilities. And then of course, there are scientists who study and measure actual psychic effects, which if you agree they exist, are no doubt integrated with all the other senses used by people with these orientations.

* I thought it was also pretty interesting seeing the Zeroed discussion, which of course, as was pointed out, came from Cyberpunk, where the situation made it an advantage. I thought it was interesting that people and the printed rules assume that anyone without an identity would be detained and arrested and so on, as a generic rule. That's highly cultural and situational, it seems to me, especially at lower tech levels and lower levels of social/political paranoia than we have in 21st Century Earth. The more Orwellian our culture gets, the more Zeroed starts to look like a potential advantage _for some characters_, even if it doesn't have cinematic powers to re-zero you. It can get complicated trying to think of all of the GURPS disadvantages and advantages that might apply as a package/lens for people whom the society isn't tracking accurately. I also thought it strange that people kept saying it was unrealistic for zeroed to block magical divination since, well, it's magic, and it seems to me that divination is kind of the fantasy analog to Google or the NSA database, and I'd tend to think it would likely be based on society's knowledge anyway - if you've paid for a social advantage of not being identified, and your society is magic-based, then it seems only logical to me that it would include a block to the way your society gets information (unless, apparently, you assume that magic divination trumps that and never has problems). Again, it's not that Zeroed is unrealistic - what's not mundane is that you're in a magic campaign. If Zeroed is an unexplainable force of re-zeroing though, then that'd be unrealistic since it's unexplainable (assuming the unexplainable force's actual explanation is unrealistic, which possibly only the GM can say). Clearly though Zeroed needs some defining and reassessment per campaign and per case.