[RPM] Different Setting and Different Paths

[PK]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I do find it sometimes confusing whether to describe something as some combination of effects, or just pick a corresponding advantage. (See all the threads about how to do Flight.) But if you always take the Advantage if you can find one, there's not a room left over for Effects. Looking forward to the RPM book.

The general rule is that if an explicit, obvious advantage is being added to "buff" the character, then you should use Altered Traits. For example, a spell that lets the caster communicate mentally with one other subject for the duration would use Lesser Sense Mind. But once that gave the caster Mind Reading and Telesend for the duration, letting him act as a telepath with anyone he wanted, would use Lesser Sense Mind + Altered Traits, Mind Reading + Telesend.

So if you want to explicitly add DR 2 to a subject, you need some form of Strengthen Body and Altered Traits, DR 2. If you omitted the Altered Traits and just cast (e.g.) "a Lesser Strengthen Body spell to make me harder to hurt," then it's up to the GM what actually happens, in game terms; you probably won't get any DR!

Remember that you always use a spell effect; it's not optional. The only question is whether or not you also need to add a given spell modifier.

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

Can a damage malediction-type attack that bypasses DR use hit location?

Maledictions cannot target hit locations. However, per GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, you can add Selective Effect to make that possible. Thus, I'd say for an extra 4 energy, you can target hit locations.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I'm just following the advice of the man himself

Thanks. I do remember that post, which seemed clear at the time. But the more I thought about it, the less clear it seemed. Overthinking the problem, no doubt.

I'm still not happy that the principle contradicts examples in MH1. But there's been more playing time since then, and no doubt the principle has evolved. Old examples are old.

Originally Posted by PK

The general rule is that if an explicit, obvious advantage is being added to "buff" the character, then you should use Altered Traits.

Not to be difficult, but speaking editorially, adding the words "explicit, obvious" actually make the principle less clear to me.

For example, let's say DR2 using the natural, "tough skin", effect is "obvious", at least perhaps, on close enough examination of the subject. DR4 scales certainly would be (not to mention crossing the line into Greater Strengthen Body). But if I add the Forcefield, No Signature enhancements to the DR, the Advantage costs even more, but it becomes non-obvious, and thus free from the Altered Traits modifier? I wouldn't think so. The words also tread confusingly close to the obviousness/naturalness test for Lesser versus Greater. How do these two adjectives constrain the meaning from just saying "advantage"?

The other practical issue is that it seems you now have to go build and price abilities with Powers to determine the correct Altered Traits cost in order to use RPM. But one reason not to use magic-as-powers in the first place is to avoid that hassle, particularly in the middle of play. (You can always just wing it, sure, but RPM gets praise for having a spell-creation system that Magic is criticized for lacking -- but Magic has the spell creation "system" of "just ask the GM for the effect and FP cost", too.)

I do like this phrasing better than the "if the subject gets the advantage" test. Under that rule, casting spells for the benefit of the caster becomes different than casting spells for the benefit of his allies, and will often be preferential from a meta-game effort as well as in-game energy cost perspective. Giving the caster DR2 shouldn't be easier than giving someone else DR2.

Note the difference between the mind-reading examples in this thread (gives the caster the ability to communicate with one specific subject, vs. gives the caster the ability to read minds at will) and the earlier one linked by Ghostdancer (gives the caster the ability, versus gives the subject the ability to read minds). It's not the distinction between caster and subject that makes the difference, but the difference between ongoing controllability versus a specific, pre-defined effect. (Some earlier examples obscure this point by changing caster/non-caster subject at the same time as whether the effect is controllable or pre-defined.)

Works for flight, too. "Make Joe fly to that ledge" is an effect. Joe can't go anywhere else (even if the caster changes his mind while Joe is in midair), and he's stuck on the ledge afterward. If you want, you can keep creating effects to move Joe from place to place, one hop at a time, but they're all separate spells. "Give Joe the ability to fly", which Joe then uses to fly to the ledge, is Altered Traits. (He might go somewhere else; it's up to Joe.)
So is "give the caster the ability to TK people around", which the caster then uses to move Joe to the ledge. (The caster might change his mind and move Joe somewhere else; Joe has no say in where he winds up.) The latter two builds would be a waste of energy unless you expect the Advantage to be used multiple times, and tack on some Duration so that the power lasts long enough to be used multiple times.

Does that sound right?

(It occurs to me that if I turn that around and apply it to DR, "controllability" suggests that I've given someone DR with Switchable, which wasn't really the case. But that's another problem for another time. Probably can be finessed based on whether the Advantage is normally switchable. Feel free to "control" your Always On Advantage; there's an old thread about walking with Always On Flight, as I recall.)

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

For example, let's say DR2 using the natural, "tough skin", effect is "obvious", at least perhaps, on close enough examination of the subject. DR4 scales certainly would be (not to mention crossing the line into Greater Strengthen Body). But if I add the Forcefield, No Signature enhancements to the DR, the Advantage costs even more, but it becomes non-obvious, and thus free from the Altered Traits modifier? I wouldn't think so.

I believe he meant obvious from a metagame point of view. Reducing all received damage by 2 is "obviously" the same as DR 2, therefore use Altered Traits.

[Anaraxes]

Trying it by defining the negative space, would you agree with a rule such as, "Spell effects alone cannot duplicate Advantages or Disadvantages. The spell must include the Altered Traits modifier to achieve such results."?

[PK]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I believe he meant obvious from a metagame point of view. Reducing all received damage by 2 is "obviously" the same as DR 2, therefore use Altered Traits.

Yes, exactly. I meant obvious to the GM and to the player, not to any fictional characters in the game world. Sorry if that was unclear.

[jamesfoxbr]

There are ways to make charms act more like D&D mage memorized spells?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

There are ways to make charms act more like D&D mage memorized spells?

This is something I've also considered. First, keep in mind that Charms are a specific type of Conditional Ritual, placed into an item and set to trigger for whoever breaks that item. However, a Conditional Ritual doesn't have to be set up that way. A wizard could place Conditional Rituals on himself, set to activate when he speaks the command word (maybe linked to hand movements to help prevent premature discharge). I'd keep the activation time at least one second, to avoid munchkinism. They lose the ability to be transferred to others, but also cannot be stolen, so I think it remains balanced.

Another thing I've considered is to limit the power of some of the wizard's spell "slots". I'd calculate his safe maximum energy, using the Charm guidelines in MH4, and use that as the limit for, say, 2/3 of his slots. This way he can't load up on over-powered spells (either by performing some risky casting, or borrowing energy from his allies) and unleash a dozen in a single fight. You could go into further detail here, making additional spell "levels", but that may just complicate things unnecessarily.

[jamesfoxbr]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This is something I've also considered. First, keep in mind that Charms are a specific type of Conditional Ritual, placed into an item and set to trigger for whoever breaks that item. However, a Conditional Ritual doesn't have to be set up that way. A wizard could place Conditional Rituals on himself, set to activate when he speaks the command word (maybe linked to hand movements to help prevent premature discharge). I'd keep the activation time at least one second, to avoid munchkinism. They lose the ability to be transferred to others, but also cannot be stolen, so I think it remains balanced.

I like the idea!

[jamesfoxbr]

But this is allowed in the normal rules? This will not make charms unnecessary?

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

But this is allowed in the normal rules? This will not make charms unnecessary?

I didn't see anything in the rules that would forbid it. In fact, I assumed that would be the default option for doing 'vancian casting' using RPM. Charms are still useful for being able to distribute to others, and because if you have good equipment, you can get bonuses to charm creation.