Our group doesn't play by RAW and it's hard for me.

[RGTraynor]

Yeah, that's weird. I can't imagine pulling that on a player of mine who's come up with the information when I don't. (For instance, I strongly encourage the players of spellcasters to have all the parameters and numbers on hand, because with all the best will in the world, I am NOT going to memorize the details of hundreds of spells.) If I say "No, I'm going to do this my way," then I need to be able to point out in the appropriate houserules document where I've disclosed this in advance. If I say "I don't like that" as often as once every year or two, that's a lot.

Sounds like this guy needs to be playing with a system a lot less detailed than GURPS, and you need to be in a different campaign. Thank you for the clarifications.

[Donny Brook]

I'm wondering if this is a family-dynamic rather than a GURPS-dynamic. In my group, we all have most of the books and we all participate in finding obscure rules or interpreting corner cases. The GM has the final say but it's not an ego thing.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Wade

There are too many rules to list. I have a 5 page list of rules we do wrong. I made it for a quick reference so we could get things right, but there's no way I could ever let him know about it.

For the first bit, houserules aren't wrong, they're just different from RAW. That reference list is something you should be using when making your characters and playing the game, not something to use to point out "No, you're wrong!" The GM should have supplied his houserules rather than relying on you to write it up, however.

Originally Posted by Wade

I really like making a thief/spy type of character. My brother (the GM) tested his dice and he says they average an 8. He always rolls perception rolls against any thief/spy skills I use, and he rolls as many times as there are other NPCs. So if I'm sneaking past 3 people, he rolls 3 times against my roll. That's also if they're not "specifically on alert". So I don't have a chance to do any kind of stealthing without a skill of at least 16. The same thing happens with disguise, acting, pickpocket, camouflage, sleight of hand, etc.

Tell him "Hey, the way you handle detection renders sneaky characters useless, but that's the kind of character I'd like to play. Would you be willing to handle it differently? Here are some options from the books that I think would make a sneaky character more feasible." If he refuses, well, that means sneaky characters just aren't an option in his campaigns. If he throws a tantrum that you dared to question him, I'd suggest not playing in campaigns with him unless and until he gains some degree of emotional maturity.

But do make certain you're asking it similarly to the above. If instead your typical way of handling this more along the lines of "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG YOU SHOULD BE DOING IT THE WAY THE BOOKS SAY WHY DO YOU HATE ME YOU SUCK SO MUCH!!111!!!11!" ... then that's probably a big source of your problem.

If his dice do indeed average an 8 on a roll of 3d6, he really needs to get some new dice. That's nearly a full Standard Deviation from where they should average. If he refuses, well, that means you've got an uphill battle, as all your foes have a roughly +2.5 to skill (and defense) for free. A good GM would either use fair dice, or adjust encounters to make up for this advantage.

Originally Posted by Wade

He's also not familiar with many rules outside of ONLY THE MOST BASIC of rules.

You could offer to help him with the rules. "Hey, I know the 4e rules are a bit deep, and you're a busy man, but I have most of them memorized. Would you like me to help you keep them straight?" If he refuses, well, that's where your unofficial houserule cheatsheet comes into play, so you can keep straight what the actual rules are at his table. This may mean you're restricted to milquetoast characters doing milquetoast things; if that makes the game untenable for you... leave. Again, a bad game is often worse than no game.


Of course, this whole "my brother is a neurotic, insecure mess of a GM" narrative sounds very familiar. I can't find the thread now, but have you posted about this before? Perhaps under a different account?

[sir_pudding]

d6s are in fact pretty easily acquired. Casino grade even.

[Purple Snit]

Honestly, though, there is only so much that we can do here. We can't come to your table and coach the GM. If he won't learn the rules to the game he's running (which is the most basic thing a GM needs to do), he won't listen to your requests to correct his errors, he won't change his approach because his ego gets in the way, and you aren't having fun in the game, there doesn't seem like a whole lot of point to the whole exercise.
Maybe you guys need to have a board game night instead of GURPS?

[whswhs]

I mostly agree with Purple Snit's comment just above. There are times when you have to say, "I'm not having fun," and walk away.

The one thing I can suggest is that, since you can't be sure of what the rules are, you ask questions about them, both when you're building your character and when you're playing. "I'm thinking about having my character sneak up on the enemy camp. What's the game mechanic for that?" "I'm thinking of building a character who's stealthy. How do you handle sneaking in play?" And if you get pushback, say, "I've been surprised by how you played things in the past. I'd like to make sure I know what the rules are."

But that's all too likely just a slow way to get to leaving the campaign when your GM objects to being pinned down.

[Kromm]

I've been in this situation, and more than once.

I've been the GURPS Line Editor for going on 28 years, so for most of three decades, my professional word on the system has been the last word. That has nothing to do with gaming in my downtime, of course. However, I've also been a GURPS fan since before the game existed, when "gurps" was an enigmatic term Steve was throwing around in the games media of the day . . . call it around 37 years. So, when I play GURPS, I'm usually the most experienced with the system, and I'm always the most expert with the system.

I've had a few friends run GURPS for me. Some were happy to be collaborative and lean on my expertise to help them get the rules right. Others were not . . . they saw interpreting rules as being the GM's sole prerogative, and viewed my mere presence as undermining them. In their view, they'd rather be wrong but in charge than right but corrected by a player.

Fine.

After a few experiences like that, I had to leave those games. I couldn't have fun playing a system I knew inside and out (and had curated and in some cases created!) in not just a house-ruled or quirky way, but too often in a broken way, with a GM who didn't want my help to fix it. It was like being a chef and invited to meals where the food wasn't just below chef-grade, but stuff like steak seasoned with ground-up Smarties and scorched to a crisp. It went beyond my capacity to be gracious.

So, I left. It was that or stop being friends because, eventually, I'd cross the line and correct the GM in front of everyone. Of course I made up excuses: I had other obligations at home, it was crunch time at work, whatever. I did my best not to burn bridges. But I couldn't stay in those gaming groups.

I hate to say it, but that might be the best solution if the GM is wrong but insists on being right, and you want to remain friends.

But first . . . while I'm not accusing you of being a rules lawyer, check your heart and confirm that you aren't. Despite my expertise, I've had players insist I was wrong and they were right – and me lacking a photographic memory, sometimes they were! Where that didn't disrupt the game, I thanked them and reset; where that did disrupt the game, I was far less gracious. Remember that a rules lawyer isn't merely an expert on the rules, but an expert on the rules who interrupts and disrupts play to demonstrate their expertise. Make sure that your friend is pushing back because of the stuff I wrote about above, not because of how you're requesting clarification or offering correction.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Wade

There are too many rules to list. I have a 5 page list of rules we do wrong. I made it for a quick reference so we could get things right, but there's no way I could ever let him know about it.

I'll talk about the ones that get me the most though. I really like making a thief/spy type of character. My brother (the GM) tested his dice and he says they average an 8. He always rolls perception rolls against any thief/spy skills I use, and he rolls as many times as there are other NPCs. So if I'm sneaking past 3 people, he rolls 3 times against my roll. That's also if they're not "specifically on alert". So I don't have a chance to do any kind of stealthing without a skill of at least 16. The same thing happens with disguise, acting, pickpocket, camouflage, sleight of hand, etc.

He's also not familiar with many rules outside of ONLY THE MOST BASIC of rules. So if I want to do an All Out Attack and move half my move forward, he gets confused and questions me. So I try to show him in the book and he's just so resistant to it, almost always saying,"I don't like that." I think that's him trying to save his pride. He's a very prideful person. He feels inadequate if he doesn't know a rule and he just plays it against me instead of just going with it. This happens a LOT with tactical combat. His most recent is grappling an opponent. He got confused about the -4 penalty, thinking it went against both the grappler and the grappled. I tried to tell him is was just the grappled that got the -4 and he just got upset that I knew something he didn't and said he thinks it should be both characters. So there goes any grappler character! Waste of time to do that.

That's just a few examples of MANY. I'm at the point where I get really nervous to even speak up simply because it's not an easy conversation about rules like it should be. I've tried to recruit my other friend to help me, but either he's not paying attention when we play, or he's too afraid to bring it up too.




We only have a handful of house rules, that he consistently keeps in mind, at least. I'm too afraid to every bring up any others we've already discussed, like Cross Parries, Quick Shooting, Extra Effort options.

It's not so much that his ruling is inconsistent, it is, but not because he keeps changing his mind. It's more that he doesn't know the rules very well, so he's judging on the fly or just completely overlooking important details.

I don't know. I don't believe it's something I can do anything about. I have to just play basic rules and never try anything interesting. He's stubborn and prideful and the only way this will ever change is if he can take time and really dig into the book. Even then he'll miss things because Gurps is so deep. But he still won't allow me to help him get it right.

Oh, and the thing about his wife, she doesn't know jack about Gurps rules, but she'll never argue against him unless it's in her favor. If it's me bringing it up, she's 100% arguing against me siding with whatever he says.

It just kind of sucks. I just wish there was something...I wish it was easier.

Ditch this game.

[johndallman]

The only thing I have to add to this is a suggesting about phrasing. Saying you "want to be told the rules" is a bit confrontational.

Putting it as "I want to understand what this character can do easily, and what's hard for them" moves the question into legitimate issues of interpretation, even if the interpretation is bizarre.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Kromm

After a few experiences like that, I had to leave those games. I couldn't have fun playing a system I knew inside and out (and had curated and in some cases created!) in not just a house-ruled or quirky way, but too often in a broken way, with a GM who didn't want my help to fix it. It was like being a chef and invited to meals where the food wasn't just below chef-grade, but stuff like steak seasoned with ground-up Smarties and scorched to a crisp. It went beyond my capacity to be gracious.

Now I can't get rid of the thought of you starring in a show that's basical Gordon Ramsay being a GURPS GM instead a chef.