Subtle / obscure signs for identifying native CF

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Inspired by a situation in-game: what less obvious signs can you name that can be used in identifying a person's native CF? As in, figuring out whether a given CF is native, or learned later in life. Note that I'm not asking about precision to the level of a single state, but only to CF level.

During the game in question, the not-so-subtle sign I noticed was a 'Japanese' character who used -san while speaking English, which would be as silly as an Englishman using Mister in Japanese or Ukrainian ones, or a Ukrainian using Pan in English.

So, any good examples?

Thanks in advance!

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

During the game in question, the not-so-subtle sign I noticed was a 'Japanese' character who used -san while speaking English, which would be as silly as an Englishman using Mister in Japanese or Ukrainian ones, or a Ukrainian using Pan in English.

A very similar one: I worked with some Indians who were new to the West some years ago. They could not get the hang of politeness in British English. They wanted to call me "Mr John", which sounds subservient; I was perfectly happy for them to call me informally "John", or if they wanted to be formal, "Mr Dallman". I never found out why both of these options seemed improper to them, but they definitely did have trouble with the idea that I was uncomfortable with them acting in a subservient manner.

They had rather different expectations of what I - as a computer programmer with sidelines in technical writing and support - could reasonably be expected to know and do. The idea that if I didn't know the answer to their questions, I would say so, then look it up and/or find out by experiment, seemed strange to them, although this may be a geek vs. normal human thing.

But they did expect me to know strange things, like where would be the best place in London to acquire table mats for formal dining? That's something that I'd only expect a specialist high-end interior decorator to know, although plenty of people might have opinions. I sent them to the central London department store that's best for staff expertise and customer service (John Lewis) since anything they bought there would be good.

[Maz]

I don't think the japanese "san" example is an example of cultural Familiarity. But more a question about only having Accented level in English. Given how broad the Cultural Familiarities are (Western, East Asia, African) and so on, I think you need to look at deeper and more subtle cultural things, not language. For instance someone from China would also find it weird that someone added "san" all the time.

I only know a couple I would call examples of this, so ingrained that you don't think about it.

One is "look at me when I'm talking to you!" vs. "don't look me in the eyes when I'm scolding you!" In western countries when you cold someone you want them to face you and look at you. A child not doing so will be corrected. From my limited knowledge, this is the reverse in many middle eastern countries where it's considered very insubordinate to look someone in the eyes if they scold you.

This is one thing I don't think people will learn and that they will automatically revert to in stressful situations (such as getting scolded by a superior... or if doing the scolding).



Another is "holding hands". In many Oceania societies (Solomon Islands to name one), it's perfectly normal for two grown men to hold hands. It's a sign of friendship, nothing romantic. I've been told this is the same in some middle eastern countries but I haven't experienced it myself.
This would likely be something many westerners would be uncomfortable with (stupid homophobes) and so they might "blow their cover" by not living up to this cultural familiarity.


[edit] found this and it confirms the "holding hands": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquet...he_Middle_East
It also confirms attoher thing I remembered but wasn't sure as true, namely the "don't hand over things with the left hand".
In general I think many of the things that would show you are not a native is found in etiquette.

[whswhs]

I can't answer this for cultural things, but I deal with it fairly often linguistically. If, for example, I see an author who write "we have measured X" where an American would write "we measured X," I recognized that they are likely French, because a standard French construction for the past tense, the passé composé, translates literally into English as the present perfect. If an author uses a plural form for a modifier when the noun modifier is plural, I recognize that as a typically Spanish usage. If they use the definite article "the" and the indefinite article "a" and omit the article seemingly at random, with no intuitive sense for how a native English speaker would use them, that suggests a Russian or Ukrainian. Not that all speakers of those languages who have learned English as a second or Nth language make those particular errors, but if they do, they tend to indicate those particular languages.

Bernard Shaw dramatized this in Pygmalion, with Henry Higgins's ability to identify exactly where in London another person was from, if I recall correctly.

Bill Stoddard

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Maz

This would likely be something many westerners would be uncomfortable with (stupid homophobes) . . . .

It's good to see that tolerance for different cultures and values is so strongly adhered to in Europe.

Bill Stoddard

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Maz

I don't think the japanese "san" example is an example of cultural Familiarity. But more a question about only having Accented level in English. Given how broad the Cultural Familiarities are (Western, East Asia, African) and so on, I think you need to look at deeper and more subtle cultural things, not language. For instance someone from China would also find it weird that someone added "san" all the time.

He spoke fluently, that's the point. Honorifics, yes/no etc. are the simpler-to-learn things, yet somehow he was using Japanese forms of address. That's the sort of things people do when they want to mislead others into thinking their native culture/language is slipping.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's good to see that tolerance for different cultures and values is so strongly adhered to in Europe.

Bill Stoddard

??? Not sure if sarcasm, and if it is, what you mean.

[Purple Haze]

North Americans eat with their fork in their right hand, only transfering it to the left to use their knife. Europeans eat with their fork in the left and knife in the right.

Russians put jam in their tea. In the absence of jam: honey, lemon, or complete desperation sugar. Milk or cream is unthinkable.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Maz

Not sure if sarcasm, and if it is, what you mean.

It was meant as irony. And what I mean is that you described a Western reluctance to do something that is not part of the Western cultural idiom, and denigrated the people who have that reluctance, both as lacking intelligence and as motivated by hatred. In other words, you stereotyped and stigmatized such people.

Suppose it were a different cultural idiom; say for example that it were a Jew or a Muslim who was unwilling to eat pork, or a Muslim who didn't want to drink alcohol, or a Chinese person who found the idea of cheese repulsive. Would you attribute their feelings to stupidity? Or if you learned that they regarded some food, and people who eat it, as unclean—as, for example, Krsna devotees seem to regard onion and garlic as unclean—would you describe their calling other people "unclean" as an expression of hatred? Or would you think that condemning them in this way was intolerant?

I don't see that it's any different when you condemn people from a Western culture for their beliefs, attitudes, or tabus. If some cultures are entitled to irrational distastes for some activities, then all cultures are.

I wouldn't hold another man's hand, not only because it would give the wrong impression, but because it would feel wrong to me, at least as an expression of the sentiments you describe. Am I in the target zone for your contempt?

Bill Stoddard

[Maz]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In other words, you stereotyped and stigmatized such people.

No. Claiming that white straight men can even be stigmatised and stereotyped is questionable. And arguing about food-preferences as if they where the same as sexual preferences is missing the point by miles.

But this is a discussion that will take this thread way way off topic so lets stop it. You are welcome to start a new thread about the oppression of white straight men.