TG use premiere in a Cliffhangers campaign

[Ultraviolet]

The last few weeks the Forum was kidn enough to answer my questions about TG, and last night I tried to implement it in my Cliffhangers campaign.

Below is an account of how things went, along a few questions in bold

I knew I had one nay-sayer about Grappling as it was, and he still wasn't thrilled but accepts the facts, and is no worse off then before. He did acknowledge the facts that Grapple and Break Free are no longer binary situations, but still thinks it takes too long to play out.
He plays Rodrigo the Stage Magician, with high DX and onlu 1-2 points in Brawling. So he really is no good in a grapple.

I also had a surprisingly enthusiastic and active player, who read my 'cheat sheet' in advance. He plays Kodiak the Bartender with ST 13 and Brawling at DX+2. Still not very effective.

Our Russian professor of Chemistry Khamill is a ST 18, Sumo at DX+2 monster, who I think also has a decent Boxing skill. He really liked the concept of Control Points.

Last (attending) player was Susan the Journalist/Karateka. Not veryinterested in the grappling bit, but accepted it while just kicking as usual.

The scene was a warehouse where 4 goons from the sinister Manchurian organization Brotherhood of the Snow Leopard stood on a line to take on our 4 heroes. The heroes had followed a hijacked prison transport holding Swedish Professor/Charlatan Mänesson, a known villain about to avoid all charges in trial.

While our heroes leapt off their stolen pursuit truck a fifth Snow Leopard was busting open the prison van, while his mates held off the heroes. Initial distance was 2 yards between the two sides.

After a few rounds spent disembarking and staring down each other (nothing as fancy as Evaluate) Susan with the highest Basic Speed made the first move.

Susan made a Step and Wait, in order to kick Goon A. He stepped in for a Grapple, Susan kicked first but he parried. Goon A got a 1 CP grapple, and never really got anywhere with it. Susan attemped a Sweep (Karate) but was parried and Goon A got a Leg Grapple. It still went nowhere, and after repeatedly Knee Striking to Face Goon A went down.

Question 1: The Leg Grapple resulted in a meagre 1 CP, but the leg does not become Unstable unless if suffers more then -1 DX. So this Leg Grapple meant next to nothing is that right?

Rodrigo called Committed Attack (determined) with an extra Step to enter close combat to punch Goon B. Goon B countered with a grapple of Rodrigo's arm for low CP. A few rounds followed with Rodrigo alternating between punching and attemping to (unsuccesfully) Break Free. Goob B managed to establish a better grapple, followed with a Joint Lock of the Arm, which Rodrigo managed to resist damage from and subsequently break. This fight later got mixed up with Khamill's from this point on.

Khamill was the last person to exit the truck, so his assigned goon instead charged Kodiak.

Kodiak armed with a tire iron called a Wait to strike Goon D when he came close. But Goon C interfered and charges him first, grappling the tire iron for 2 CP, going for a Grab-and-Snatch. Goon D also charged, but Kodiak missed the tire iron strike as Goon C was grabbing it, albeit only for a small penalty.

Q2: Do Cp on a grappled weapon inflict penalties? I assume it is no different from CP on the arm?

Kodiak let go of the tire iron.

Q3: I ruled that the CP on Kodiak's tire iron no longer affected him, and that Goon C now had the weapon

Khamill failed to leap onto the hood of the truck - he was otherwise attempting a Slam form above on the entire Kodiak-Goon C-Goon D pile.

Kodiak attempted a Break Free from Goon D's grapple of his Torso, but he was not succesfull. Goon D now made an Offensive Judo Throw and Kodiak's player called out "Sprawling" much to everybvody's surpise. I was surprised he had actually read and remembered things, the rest thought he was just yelling out nonsense (as is usually the case). Kodiak won the contest by a lot, and the two ended up Lying Down with Kodiak on top and with a Weight Advantage. Kodiak managed two consequetive AoA Committed, Telegraphed Head Butts tot he face of Goon D to KO him.

Q4: I was not specfic about whether Goon D was changing posture himself, so was it correct to have him go down as well?

Goon C dropped the tire iron and charged Khamill. That was stupid because Khamill responded with AoA Double for 2 grapples. His Trained ST of 20 yielded a boatload of CP. Khamill's player thought this was awesome. Khaill now used Shoving People Around and hauled Goon C along to help Rodrigo in the fight with Goon B. A lot of AoA's now followed where Goon C managed to whittle away about half Khamill's CP, untill Khamill made new grapples. Goon B kicked Khamill in the head, since he had no defense. But as he used AoA Rodrigo ended that part of the fight. When Khamill let go of Goon C with one hand I forgot to reduce the CP, but it was hardly decisive for the fight.. Once free Rodrigo punched Goon C repeatedly and eventually beat him to a pulp, while Khamill strengthened the grip.

In the meantime the remaining goon had broked the Swede free and a car vessus train chase scene followed, culminating in Rodrigo driving the car off a bridge in ordetr to land on the train carriages. It was intereresting.

But in conclusion the use of TG went well. A low less damage had been dealt copoared to a classical punching fight. Well, to the player characters anyway. Yes, it too a long time, but all combats do that for us. And it was a bunch of new rules. Rodrigos player felt is was longer than usual, and with less to show. The rest of us disagreed. And he repeatedly accused Khamill'splayer of being blinded by wanting to accumulate CPs, so he never used any and consequently was less efficient in the combat than usual. But to be fair Khamill is usually next to useless in fights for some reason, even though he is monstrously strong. Bt it is always funny.

Conclusion: 2 thumbs up and TG is now a regular feature. I can't want to play my own character, once I'm done GMing this current, ridiculous plot.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

last night I tried to implement it in my Cliffhangers campaign.

You are wise as well as powerful.

Some quick answers becuase I have to run in about six minutes to a meeting

He did acknowledge the facts that Grapple and Break Free are no longer binary situations, but still thinks it takes too long to play out.

The solution for this is to use the cinematic "double CP inflicted and maxima for everything" thing. Basically use the swing instead of thrust column for control points. That will play out more like Iron Man 2 and less like Saving Private Ryan.

But the mission statement of the book actually included the fact that using grappling as a delaying tactic should be effective: grappling matches with trained combatants really do take longer.

Susan kicked first but he parried. Goon A got a 1 CP grapple, and never really got anywhere with it. Susan attemped a Sweep (Karate) but was parried and Goon A got a Leg Grapple. It still went nowhere, and after repeatedly Knee Striking to Face Goon A went down.

Question 1: The Leg Grapple resulted in a meagre 1 CP, but the leg does not become Unstable unless if suffers more then -1 DX. So this Leg Grapple meant next to nothing is that right?

Grabbing Parries are very deliberately weak. That initial contact is just that - contact. The "right answer" here is to IMMEDIATELY follow up with a Lock technique. You don't take penalties for location (you already have it grabbed) and Arm Lock/Leg Lock rolls at full skill at worst, and is usually bought up cheaply. So lots of room for a solid improvement. But you can't usually expect to do a Grabbing Parry and be able to do anything useful with it right away.

Rodrigo alternating between punching and attemping to (unsuccesfully) Break Free. Goob B managed to establish a better grapple, followed with a Joint Lock of the Arm, which Rodrigo managed to resist damage from and subsequently break. This fight later got mixed up with Khamill's from this point on.

I have usually allowed striking to break free by attacking the grappling body parts. It's going to be a striker's natural reaction, and punching your attacker hard in the face or hand is not a horrible way to break a grapple.

Q2: Do Cp on a grappled weapon inflict penalties? I assume it is no different from CP on the arm?

Yes. A weapon is considered part of the foe's arm/hand when used, so it's the same as grappling the arm. You made the right call.

Q3: I ruled that the CP on Kodiak's tire iron no longer affected him, and that Goon C now had the weapon

Yep. He'd have to ready it to use it, likely, but it's his.

Khamill failed to leap onto the hood of the truck - he was otherwise attempting a Slam form above on the entire Kodiak-Goon C-Goon D pile.

Kodiak attempted a Break Free from Goon D's grapple of his Torso, but he was not succesfull. Goon D now made an Offensive Judo Throw and Kodiak's player called out "Sprawling" much to everybvody's surpise. I was surprised he had actually read and remembered things, the rest thought he was just yelling out nonsense (as is usually the case). Kodiak won the contest by a lot, and the two ended up Lying Down with Kodiak on top and with a Weight Advantage. Kodiak managed two consequetive AoA Committed, Telegraphed Head Butts tot he face of Goon D to KO him.

Sprawling make Freddy so happy! (Big Hero 6)

Q4: I was not specfic about whether Goon D was changing posture himself, so was it correct to have him go down as well?

Some Judo Throws have the attacker go down, some don't. Resolving a forced posture change would be appropriate in order to force Goon down, but having it just work makes tons of sense given the situation. A good time for the GM to do what's dramatially cool despite anything the rules might say.

But in conclusion the use of TG went well. A low less damage had been dealt copoared to a classical punching fight. Well, to the player characters anyway. Yes, it too a long time, but all combats do that for us. And it was a bunch of new rules.

All reasonable. And if fewer folks are going to hospitals after a fistfight, well, mission accomplished.

Rodrigos player felt is was longer than usual, and with less to show. The rest of us disagreed. And he repeatedly accused Khamill'splayer of being blinded by wanting to accumulate CPs, so he never used any and consequently was less efficient in the combat than usual. But to be fair Khamill is usually next to useless in fights for some reason, even though he is monstrously strong. Bt it is always funny.

For what it's worth, "just accumulate CP" has been the go-to strategy in MANY session reports I've read where folks used TG. Spending CP has not always been favorably received, so I take that as a nice balance. Lots of CP are disabling but not destructive; spending them makes for fight-ending moves if they work, but is a high-risk, high-reward strategy.

Conclusion: 2 thumbs up and TG is now a regular feature. I can't want to play my own character, once I'm done GMing this current, ridiculous plot.

Thanks for the play report!

dhc

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You are wise as well as powerful.

Some quick answers becuase I have to run in about six minutes to a meeting

No worries, I appreciate every single answer, which always come quite a short time after I post questions.
Good answers even though you were pressed for time.

Grabbing Parries are very deliberately weak. That initial contact is just that - contact. The "right answer" here is to IMMEDIATELY follow up with a Lock technique. You don't take penalties for location (you already have it grabbed) and Arm Lock/Leg Lock rolls at full skill at worst, and is usually bought up cheaply. So lots of room for a solid improvement. But you can't usually expect to do a Grabbing Parry and be able to do anything useful with it right away.

But it was Leg Grapple (TG p39) not a Grabbing Parry. The latter is a (more difficult parry) which also acts as a 1-handed grapple at the attacking limb. Leg Grapple is merely a follow up grapple to a normal parry, which can only be defended against by Dodge. This makes is slightly better (perhaps) than a normal parry followed by a normal grapple, which allows any defense.

If using Leg Grapple, you spend one round making the grapple, and unless you AoA the foe has a chance to Break Free before you can do anything with it. Of course, if you have a good Trained ST you inflict a good deal of CP on that initial grapple (which is more likely to hit, because Dodge is usually lower than parries). But for attacks following the Leg Grapple you only have advantage of an Unstable foe if you inflict a higher penalty than -1 DX, which would require 4+ CP inflicted.

I have usually allowed striking to break free by attacking the grappling body parts. It's going to be a striker's natural reaction, and punching your attacker hard in the face or hand is not a horrible way to break a grapple.

But in the RAW it doesn't help directly. Indirectly striking for damage also causes shock penalty, but only affecting the foe's action on his turn. By the time it's your turn again, and you try Break Free, the shock penalty is gone, right?
Of course striking hard enough to cripple the foe's arm should break the hold anyway. But that's tough in one hit.

Some Judo Throws have the attacker go down, some don't. Resolving a forced posture change would be appropriate in order to force Goon down, but having it just work makes tons of sense given the situation. A good time for the GM to do what's dramatially cool despite anything the rules might say.

Yeah, the former technique of Sacrifice Throw, which is now Judo Throw using a posture change, the Sprawling effects would make sense.
Before TG the generic Takedown assumed the attacker went down (so in TG terms a Force Posture Change - Standing-to-Lying down, withthe attacker doing the same). Here Sprawling made a lot of sense.
But a TG Offensive Judo Throw, where the attacker remains standing? Would it be balanced to allow the Sprawling defender to use his next action on a Force Posture Change on the foe, where the attacker *must* go all the way down (for the large bonus) *plus* the +3 bonus Sprawling in MA yields.
Or should that bonus not apply? Or should the Force Posture Change happen immediately, on the Judo Thrower's turn?
it seems to me that a succesful Sprawling in answer to a Judo Throw, where the attacker intends to remain standing *automatically* taking him down seems too good.




All reasonable. And if fewer folks are going to hospitals after a fistfight, well, mission accomplished.

For what it's worth, "just accumulate CP" has been the go-to strategy in MANY session reports I've read where folks used TG. Spending CP has not always been favorably received, so I take that as a nice balance. Lots of CP are disabling but not destructive; spending them makes for fight-ending moves if they work, but is a high-risk, high-reward strategy.

Let's see how things go in the future. My own Cliffhangers character is a good deal less monstrous in Trained ST than Khamill, but he has points sunk into some nice Targeted Attacks. I think I'll go for Grab-and-Smash using Grapple/Head followed by Knee Strike/Face.

And about Grab-and-Smash...in MA it requires an AoA Double to allow both grapple and strike in the same round, but also adds +2 dam as would an AoA Strong have. In subsequent rounds - if you retain the grapple - you can make AoA Strong for the same +2 dam.
But in TG is it listed to be a grapple immediately followed by a strike - which sounds like it still requires AoA double. CP inflicted may immediately be used on the strike, adding directly to damage. Plus you may retain the grapple, if not all CP are spent. Or I assume a 0 CP grapple is still a thing, but it is quite easy to Break Free from, and if at all successful all but the weakest foes should get a reversal and get CP on *you*
But subsequent rounds, or a situation where you grapple using nly normal Attack, can you still add CP to dam, or is it just in the first round?

[Ultraviolet]

Even after post-rationalization there are some issues I need to work out, before discussing it with the group, so we can works things out correct in the future

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Grabbing Parries are very deliberately weak. That initial contact is just that - contact. The "right answer" here is to IMMEDIATELY follow up with a Lock technique. You don't take penalties for location (you already have it grabbed) and Arm Lock/Leg Lock rolls at full skill at worst, and is usually bought up cheaply. So lots of room for a solid improvement. But you can't usually expect to do a Grabbing Parry and be able to do anything useful with it right away.

But it was Leg Grapple (TG p39) not a Grabbing Parry. The latter is a (more difficult) parry which also acts as a 1-handed grapple at the attacking limb. Leg Grapple is merely a follow up grapple to a normal parry, which can only be defended against by Dodge, likely because it is faster. This makes it slightly better (perhaps) than a normal parry followed by a normal grapple, which allows any defense.

If using Leg Grapple, you spend one round making the grapple, and unless you AoA the foe has a chance to Break Free before you can do anything with it. Of course, if you have a high Trained ST you inflict a good deal of CP on that initial grapple (which is more likely to hit, because Dodge is usually lower than parries). But for attacks following the Leg Grapple you only have advantage of an Unstable foe if you inflict a higher penalty than -1 DX, which would require 4+ CP inflicted. So weak grappler rarely benefit from this?

I have usually allowed striking to break free by attacking the grappling body parts. It's going to be a striker's natural reaction, and punching your attacker hard in the face or hand is not a horrible way to break a grapple.

But in the RAW it doesn't help directly. Indirectly striking for damage also causes shock penalty, but only affecting the foe's action on his turn. By the time it's your turn again, and you try Break Free, the shock penalty is gone, right?
Of course striking hard enough to cripple the foe's arm should break the hold anyway. But that's tough in one hit.

Some Judo Throws have the attacker go down, some don't. Resolving a forced posture change would be appropriate in order to force Goon down, but having it just work makes tons of sense given the situation. A good time for the GM to do what's dramatially cool despite anything the rules might say.

Yeah, the former technique of Sacrifice Throw, which is now Judo Throw using a posture change, the Sprawling effects would make sense.
Before TG the generic Takedown assumed the attacker went down (so in TG terms a Force Posture Change - Standing-to-Lying down, withthe attacker doing the same). Here Sprawling made a lot of sense.
But a TG Offensive Judo Throw, where the attacker remains standing? Would it be balanced to allow the Sprawling defender to use his next action on a Force Posture Change on the foe, where the attacker *must* go all the way down (for the large bonus) *plus* the +3 bonus Sprawling in MA yields.
Or should that bonus not apply? Or should the Force Posture Change happen immediately, on the Judo Thrower's turn?
it seems to me that a succesful Sprawling in answer to a Judo Throw, where the attacker intends to remain standing *automatically* taking him down seems too good.

For what it's worth, "just accumulate CP" has been the go-to strategy in MANY session reports I've read where folks used TG. Spending CP has not always been favorably received, so I take that as a nice balance. Lots of CP are disabling but not destructive; spending them makes for fight-ending moves if they work, but is a high-risk, high-reward strategy.

Let's see how things go in the future. My own Cliffhangers character is a good deal less monstrous in Trained ST than Khamill, but he has points sunk into some nice Targeted Attacks. I think I'll go for Grab-and-Smash using Grapple/Head followed by Knee Strike/Face.

And about Grab-and-Smash...in MA it requires an AoA Double to allow both grapple and strike in the same round, but also adds +2 dam as would an AoA Strong have. In subsequent rounds - if you retain the grapple - you can make AoA Strong for the same +2 dam.
But in TG is it listed to be a grapple immediately followed by a strike - which sounds like it still requires AoA double. CP inflicted may immediately be used on the strike, adding directly to damage. Plus you may retain the grapple, if not all CP are spent. Or I assume a 0 CP grapple is still a thing, but it is quite easy to Break Free from, and if at all successful all but the weakest foes should get a reversal and get CP on *you*
But subsequent rounds, or a situation where you grapple using only normal Attack, can you still add CP to dam, or is it just in the first round?