[Pyramid 3/77] CER Calculations

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by wmervine4

3. When calculating the score for Affliction, it says that if the Affliction also causes damage, you should use the full value for the one with the higher score and 1/5th the value of the other. Does this mean that you should work out both the Affliction score (including modifiers for Terror, Binding ST, etc.) and the damage score (including modifiers for Rapid Fire, damage type, etc.), then, depending on which is larger, divide the other by 5 and add it to the overall OR?

Correct.

Originally Posted by wmervine4

4. Kind of along with the previous question, does this "use 1/5th of the other's value" apply if the best Affliction isn't linked to damage? The case I'm thinking of here is if a creature has a damaging attack and also has a secondary attack that causes an incapacitating condition, but the two are not linked. In that scenario, would the full value of the Affliction and the full value of the damage score both add to the OR?

Correct, if it has an Affliction that isn't linked to damage use the full CER.

Originally Posted by wmervine4

(The underlying logic here to me seems to be that if a creature has a single attack that damages and incapacitates, only the worst of those two effects make it more dangerous so the lesser one contributes less to the OR, whereas if the creature has the ability to damage and incapacitate separately, those two separate attacks modes are overall more dangerous so both fully contribute to the OR.)

Correct.

Originally Posted by wmervine4

5. I'm trying to calculate the CER for the Acid Spider in DF2 to ensure I understand the calculations properly, but I'm coming up with OR 31/PR 41 whereas the Pyramid article shows OR 32/PR 62. Following the instructions in the article for the Acid Spider I had OR = 5 + 0 + 20 + 3 + 3 = 31, and PR = 6 + 13 + 3 + 16 + 3 = 41. Where did I do wrong?

This is known errata - sorry. The tables have some issues. I've submitted it. But to break it down some:

Offensive Rating
Attack Skill: The Acid Spider's base attack is 15, so 15 - 10 = 5
Affliction: The Acid Spider has nothing applicable here, so 0
Damage: The Acid Spider's main damaging attack is 8 points of impaling damage and 0.5 points of cyclic corrosion damage, so for the impaling attack it's 8 x 2 = 16, while the corrosion damage is 0.5 x 2 = 1 x 10 = 10; total is 26
Fatigue Points: The Acid Spider has an FP of 13, so 13 - 10 = 3
Move: The Acid Spider has a Move of 9, so 9 - 6 = 3

Protective Rating
Active Defense: The Acid Spider has a Dodge of 11, so 11 - 8 = 3 x 2 =6
Damage Resistance: The Acid Spider has DR 4 in all locations and no significant protective traits, so 4 + 4 + 4 +4 / 4 = 4
Health: The Acid Spider has a HT of 13, so 13 - 10 = 3
Hit Points: The Acid Spider has a HP of 26 and no significant recovery traits, so 26 - 10 = 16
Will: The Acid Spider has a Will of 12 and Combat reflexes, so 12 - 10 = 2 + 1 = 3


Thus total OR is 37 and total PR is 32, so total CER is 69.

[wmervine4]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

This is known errata - sorry. The tables have some issues. I've submitted it. But to break it down some:

Offensive Rating
Attack Skill: The Acid Spider's base attack is 15, so 15 - 10 = 5
Affliction: The Acid Spider has nothing applicable here, so 0
Damage: The Acid Spider's main damaging attack is 8 points of impaling damage and 0.5 points of cyclic corrosion damage, so for the impaling attack it's 8 x 2 = 16, while the corrosion damage is 0.5 x 2 = 1 x 10 = 10; total is 26
Fatigue Points: The Acid Spider has an FP of 13, so 13 - 10 = 3
Move: The Acid Spider has a Move of 9, so 9 - 6 = 3

Protective Rating
Active Defense: The Acid Spider has a Dodge of 11, so 11 - 8 = 3 x 2 =6
Damage Resistance: The Acid Spider has DR 4 in all locations and no significant protective traits, so 4 + 4 + 4 +4 / 4 = 4
Health: The Acid Spider has a HT of 13, so 13 - 10 = 3
Hit Points: The Acid Spider has a HP of 26 and no significant recovery traits, so 26 - 10 = 16
Will: The Acid Spider has a Will of 12 and Combat reflexes, so 12 - 10 = 2 + 1 = 3


Thus total OR is 37 and total PR is 32, so total CER is 69.

Wow, this example is incredible. It really clarified a lot for me so THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! My spreadsheet works now and comes up with the same answer so I think I'm good. What was really tricky for me is the way the Damage score works in the OR when there is follow-up damage, and the Acid Spider was a great example of this.

Also, your apologies are unnecessary. I completely understand being limited by a word count in the article itself, and I am very grateful you responded so promptly here. Thank you again, and feel free to return to your Very Comfy Nest at the End of Reality. :-)

[wmervine4]

Oh no! Just when I thought I was done, another question cropped up! This should be a quick one. What is "head DR"? There is no "head" hit location, so is this the average of skull and face DR, is it skull DR only, or something else?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by wmervine4

Wow, this example is incredible. It really clarified a lot for me so THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! My spreadsheet works now and comes up with the same answer so I think I'm good. What was really tricky for me is the way the Damage score works in the OR when there is follow-up damage, and the Acid Spider was a great example of this.

I've got some Designer's Notes for this if you are so interested. I also ended up using the framework I created for this article as a way to calculate Troop Strength for GURPS Mass Combat in my article "Heroes on the Mass Scale" from Pyramid #3/84: Perspectives

Originally Posted by wmervine4

Also, your apologies are unnecessary. I completely understand being limited by a word count in the article itself, and I am very grateful you responded so promptly here.

If I ever write my theoretical "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy XX: Dungeoncraft" this is going to in there along with "it's a Trap!" and two other "It's a...' articles (which I've yet to submit to an issue). I'd also add in a bunch of info on dungeon creation, monster/trap placement, etc. And at the end it would have a series of appendixes to randomly roll wandering monsters, traps, dungeons, wheather, etc. Well, that's the goal anyways.

Originally Posted by wmervine4

Oh no! Just when I thought I was done, another question cropped up! This should be a quick one. What is "head DR"? There is no "head" hit location, so is this the average of skull and face DR, is it skull DR only, or something else?

Use Skull DR.

Originally Posted by wmervine4

Thank you again, and feel free to return to your Very Comfy Nest at the End of Reality. :-)

Funny you should mention that, I'm moving to the new nest today. Lots of work to be done, I'm afraid, but it should be quite nice when finished. If you need anything else post here or feel free to PM me. I usually answer within a couple of hours - day at the most.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

If I ever write my theoretical "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy XX: Dungeoncraft" this is going to in there along with "it's a Trap!" and two other "It's a...' articles (which I've yet to submit to an issue).

We definitely need an "It's a Cat" article, with all information needed to run our feline friends.

[zuljita]

Sorry for the necromancy. Looking for help on a few things:
1) Vampiric bite, how does it factor in if it's not the creature's highest OR attack? (See Vampire from DFRPG page 58).
2) Any idea what engulfing (see Jelly in DFRPG page 38) does to CER?
3) I've been chalking up invisibility as a defensive trait, but it has substantial offensive implications as well, should it count to OR in some way?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by zuljita

Sorry for the necromancy. Looking for help on a few things:
1) Vampiric bite, how does it factor in if it's not the creature's highest OR attack? (See Vampire from DFRPG page 58).
2) Any idea what engulfing (see Jelly in DFRPG page 38) does to CER?
3) I've been chalking up invisibility as a defensive trait, but it has substantial offensive implications as well, should it count to OR in some way?

Not the original author, but here's my suggestions. For all of these, I'd suggest that using the guidelines in the Damage Resistance section (+1 to CER per 5 points a trait is worth) is probably a good guideline for offensive abilities as well. So, a vampiric bite, assuming it worked pretty much like the unmodified version in Basic, would add 6 points to CER, the engulfing modifier would increase CER by (the number of points applying it would increase its Binding advantage/5), and Invisibility would probably add +8 to CER, assuming again that it works basically like the Basic advantage.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by zuljita

Sorry for the necromancy. Looking for help on a few things:
1) Vampiric bite, how does it factor in if it's not the creature's highest OR attack? (See Vampire from DFRPG page 58).

Point cost divided by 5. Since it drains 3 HP each second, that’s a 40-point advantage, so +8.

Originally Posted by zuljita

2) Any idea what engulfing (see Jelly in DFRPG page 38) does to CER?

Constriction Attack with Engulf, +60%, is 24 points. That means +5.

Originally Posted by zuljita

3) I've been chalking up invisibility as a defensive trait, but it has substantial offensive implications as well, should it count to OR in some way?

I keep calling it defensive since it’s offensive worth comes from not having to worry about defense. You can split it down the middle if that bugs you.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Correct.



Correct, if it has an Affliction that isn't linked to damage use the full CER.



Correct.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I have been going through the article to use it for a Dungeon Fantasy campaign so that I can test it out a bit, but this point about affliction has both on my first read through and now seemed very counter intuitive to me.

Why use this logic?

If I have a creature with a damaging attack AND an affliction that causes stunning, I would get full damage value + full affliction value.
...but if I have an otherwise identical creature which instead has the same damaging attack with symptoms, side effect or follow up to produce the same affliction effect, I would get the full value for the higher of damage and affliction and 1/5 of the other?

Why is this the exact reverse of buying such a trait, where I could quite often get the 1/5 discount for having one as an alternate attack to the other, while having to pay the full price for both in the case of a follow up ability?

If I look at the boneflower for example, I could turn its one attack into two attacks with the same characteristics in terms of range, ROF, etc. but have one purely dealing damage while the other only causes the affliction.
This would actually remove the very helpful side effect of a penalty to the HT roll based on damage inflicted, but increase its CER?

I really, really like the idea of CER and also the splitting it into offensive and defensive ratings, but I really cannot understand the logic here...

Aside from that, I think things like how hard an affliction is to resist, things like side effects, symptoms, whether DR has an effect need to be in there to some degree.
It really makes me wish the article would have been longer and more detailed on some points... ^^ ;