Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

[gilbertocarlos]

Obs: I'm using berserker and All-Out-Attack as synonyms, even though they aren't for simplicity sake.

I was just looking at berserk and noticed that, you get no defense, no matter what. So, why not always do telegraphic attacks vs. barbarians and the like? It's a HUGE issue for a barbarian, yet, no one talks about that.

Even stunned characters on the ground get a defense, but berserkers don't.

You get 0 defense while berserk, yet, there are stories of berserkers with sword and shield.

What about instead of removing the defenses from an All-Out-Attack putting a harsh penalty to them? Like -6, this way, a berserk would have a reason to go berserk with a shield, and the issue of telegraphic attacks would disappear. Obviously, a berserker with a greatsword and parry 10 would not have a huge advantage with his parry of 4, however, a guy with a large shield, combat reflexes and good skill in shield with block of 15 will have a reason to block.

If not that, there should be at least a penalty to hit a berserker with a shield. Also, a berserker should be able to do a poor defense against a telegraphic attack.

[Anthony]

The interaction of telegraphic attack with all-out attack was poorly (or not at all) thought out. I would probably either allow berserkers to make Committed Attacks or change All-Out Attack to be a -4 to defense (cannot retreat, cannot defend with a weapon used this turn).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

If not that, there should be at least a penalty to hit a berserker with a shield. .

There was in 3e. Shields gave "Passive Defense" and you could try and defend with your PD alone even without making an Active Defense (forbidden to characters with Berserk).

Eh, Berserk may be underpriced since it's not equal to Terminally Ill but the issue has been there since Day One. That may be why it's not talked about much.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The interaction of telegraphic attack with all-out attack was poorly (or not at all) thought out.

No, it was thought out at great length. In fact, it was the subject of two hours of phone calls and a lot of playtesting. It's fine as it is. People might not like the fact that going fully on the offensive means you either kill your enemy or he kills you – and boy, he had better not have pals – but that's death for you. The real issue here is with Berserk, not All-Out Attack, and whether it's fair to get +4 all the time. I tend to agree that it isn't . . . personally, I think that switching Berserk to Committed Attack would be the fairest tweak.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Obs: I'm using berserker and All-Out-Attack as synonyms, even though they aren't for simplicity sake.

I was just looking at berserk and noticed that, you get no defense, no matter what. So, why not always do telegraphic attacks vs. barbarians and the like? It's a HUGE issue for a barbarian, yet, no one talks about that.

Really? Because I've seen plenty of discussion on this forums about the fact that Berserk is pretty much a death sentence against foes competent enough to ward off the berserker's attack or able to anticipate the berserker's next attack well enough to prepare a Wait against him. The key to those discussions being that Telegraphed Attacks are free bonuses against Berserkers.

RAW Berserk is a terrible disadvantage that will get a character blinded, crippled, or killed in short order. Kromm's suggested tweak is very interesting, and is one I'll definitely have to think about for future games.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, it was thought out at great length. In fact, it was the subject of two hours of phone calls and a lot of playtesting.

Yeah, seriously. It was one of the most playtested aspects of the book. It was in immediate and constant use from the moment I put it down on my table for my group to try. It was tweaked as a result of all that playesting, then more conversation with Kromm, and then more playtesting.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The real issue here is with Berserk, not All-Out Attack, and whether it's fair to get +4 all the time. I tend to agree that it isn't . . . personally, I think that switching Berserk to Committed Attack would be the fairest tweak.

Personally, I have zero issues with All-Out Attack vs. Telegraphic Attack. I'd leave it as-is.*

Plus thanks to things like Sacrificial Parry and Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Block, giving out a +2 to defend just to land on the berserker isn't always a smart move in every game. It's not always going to work.

If the berserker is by himself, yeah, it's a death sentence. You had to know that getting angry in combat and not bothering to defend yourself was going to come back and bite you sometime. If you want to be angry in combat but have a chance to defend, go with Bad Temper and High Pain Threshold, not Berserk.


* Although I usually suggest Commited Attack as an appropriate result from a failed Overconfidence control roll or On the Edge or even just Bad Temper. It's not crazy, but it's risky.

[Flyndaran]

Berserk is not a disadvantage for competent fighters. It's severe life shortening mental illness with a bit of cinematic immunities bundled in.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, it was thought out at great length. In fact, it was the subject of two hours of phone calls and a lot of playtesting. It's fine as it is.

If a maneuver translates as 'why would I ever use this', it's not fine. Unless you're basically untrained, all-out attack is a terrible option.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anthony

If a maneuver translates as 'why would I ever use this', it's not fine. Unless you're basically untrained, all-out attack is a terrible option.

It makes sense if you have a single second where you know they can't defend for whatever reason. But other than that, it's pretty stupid.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It makes sense if you have a single second where you know they can't defend for whatever reason.

Actually, that's not the issue. The issue is whether they will be unable to attack you next turn, which basically translates as 'already stunned'.