How to do commercial transactions with smart players - Page 2

Ulzgoroth · 12-15-2017, 09:11 AM

This isn't 'using the player's Merchant skill' this is using the fact that the rules are written in such a way that the player can infer perfect information about the Merchant's willingness to accept their counteroffer before making it.

Sure, that is metagaming, but that doesn't make it not a design problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ

Oh, and there is something on the end of example (with pistols) of transactions. PC is offering lower than fair price because fear of don't making transaction at all. It seems to mechanics suggesting aproach like this?:
M: 240
P: 119
M: GTFO from my shop you beggar, I will not sell you this
P: ok ok I'll pay even 500!
M: Guards! Take this man outside!

Yes, it's not really unclear on that point. If you blow up your transaction, it's not just a chance to start the process over for free.

Railstar · 12-15-2017, 09:16 AM

If the PC starts off ridiculously low with their offers and then gradually raises the price by increments, the NPC merchant can do the same thing to the PC and keep refusing until he sees how far the PCs are willing to budge to.

Ulzgoroth · 12-15-2017, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Railstar

If the PC starts off ridiculously low with their offers and then gradually raises the price by increments, the NPC merchant can do the same thing to the PC and keep refusing until he sees how far the PCs are willing to budge to.

That's actually how the haggling rule works. How much the merchant adjusts their price is a function of how much the PC adjusts theirs.

Stormcrow · 12-15-2017, 09:45 AM

My wife sometimes watches those reality shows where people buy junk, fix it up, and sell it. I hear their "negotiations," where they're obviously just pretending to be considering the pros and cons of the offered price before saying no, that's too much/little, and suggesting something else. It's fairly ridiculous; it seems to be trying to force drama and complexity onto a fairly simple transaction: A: $Number? B: No, $number? A: No, $number? B: Ummm, okay.

In the very few real haggling events I've been involved in, offering a revised number always involved altering what was being offered at the same time. A: $100 is too much for a doohickey, how about $50? B: No, but if you give me $90 I'll throw in a thingamabob. A: How about $75 for the doohickey, but you can keep the unobtanium that runs it, because I already have some? Etc.

I recommend against dragging out the reality-show version, because it's silly. Just run that as a contest of Merchant skills, or something similar, until a number can be agreed upon. The more realistic haggling version can be played just as an interaction between player and GM. The GM can gauge the NPC's ability to haggle and offer appropriate alterations to the deal based on that; he can also gauge whether the NPC accepts counter-offers based on the PC's Merchant skill.

Unless you really enjoy haggling, in which case you'll want to play it out yourself, I recommend just doing the contest of Merchant skill and arriving at a number that was negotiated behind the scenes.

GWJ · 12-15-2017, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This isn't 'using the player's Merchant skill' this is using the fact that the rules are written in such a way that the player can infer perfect information about the Merchant's willingness to accept their counteroffer before making it.
.

Exactly. Even I have problem with this myself. Because of GMing I know these values, and I "accidentally" know these principles (if offer is between fair price and triple fair price, I can safely offer just fair price, if more than triple then I can offer just 150%).

Hmmm maybe we are mistaking on rules interpretation? Maybe "the same reaction roll" meaning "the same dice result" instead of "the same result in reaction table"? You know - no another roll but additional modifiers for low price for this first roll, with offered price being new fair price?

Skarg · 12-15-2017, 01:28 PM

I'd add that it's more interesting if you add character and exceptions to specific merchants, and have them remember and gossip about the experiences they've had with the PCs, so the PCs can develop relationships with specific merchants, and different merchants have different negotiating quirks or styles.

Bruno · 12-15-2017, 01:31 PM

Haggling can involve microscopically examining an item and picking out out trivial flaws as excuses for demanding a lower price, or as counter offers trivial features. It's basically a smoke-screen for just trying to dicker with the other guy, but it means that you have a justification for your counter offer.

If you just say $60 for the $120 item that the vendor asked $240 for, that's annoying; you're not playing the game right, and many merchants in a haggling culture enjoy the game enough to tell you to buzz off.

If you say $60 because look at this scratch here, and the edge looks a bit crude, and you question the origin of the steel, you're playing the game. The merchant can argue with you over those points (the scratch will buff out, what you can't sharpen your own axe?), brag about the origin of the steel and the pedigree of the smeltery, which is fun, and he can counter offer with saying surely you wouldn't pay less than $200 for steel from ACME Smelting?

Railstar · 12-15-2017, 02:57 PM

Another thing to mention is if the PCs get a reputation for asking for special treatment, as in demanding people sell things to them at far below market price or buy things off them for far above, then people are going to take for granted that any offer they make is going to be unreasonable.

Reaction penalty right there.

The other factor is the merchant might not have time to haggle. Another customer might walk in the door, whereupon the merchant says "this customer might be willing to buy something for something approaching what it's worth, excuse me while I try to sell to them instead." And then the merchant names a figure he'd accept and walks off.

If the PCs get in the merchant's way and interrupts the rest of his business, more reaction penalties in future.

sir_pudding · 12-15-2017, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Railstar

Reaction penalty right there.

Yeah, "skinflint" is a meaningful reputation in a haggling economy, and one that won't do you any favors.

Gnaskar · 12-15-2017, 03:38 PM

I suspect the rules are deliberately written so that in most cases, the price will end up being close to the book value of the item. Pretty much no matter how the reaction roll goes, the merchant is willing to sell at that value. It is, as Social Engineering calls it, a Fair Price. For my games, that's fine. If you want to change that assumption, however, there are a few ways we can tweak the rules.

Change the price: Your player "knows" he can get a Poleaxe (I got tired of calling it a generic item) for $120, so if the price is more than that he should make a counter offer of $120. But $120 is just the average cost of a Poleaxe, not the cost of this particular Poleaxe from this particular blacksmith. If the price of metal in the area has gone slightly up because the local mine has a flu outbreak to deal with, then the fair price for a Poleaxe is going to go up to compensate. Conversely, if the Baron just cancelled an order for 50 poleaxes (after having paid half upfront), the blacksmith is likely to accept a lower price just to get the damn things out of his shop. You can freely and arbitrarily alter the local prices to suit your setting. You could even have the prices be off from the book value by (2d-7)*5% whenever the players go shopping (making sure not to change the value until some time has passed).

Change the table: If you don't want a player who got a Bad reaction from a merchant to be able to pick up the Poleaxe at the "fair price" of $120, then simply rule that the minimum price for a Bad reaction is (for example) 125%. There's no reason to let the players see your updated table either. After all, it's not like their characters know that the merchant won't sell for a penny less than $150.

Change the culture: What if we assume that any counter-offer from the players leads directly into the rules for Haggling, rather than the merchant deciding whether to take the offer or toss the players out immediately? In that case, the worst thing the players can do is use the fair price as their offer, because they can only go up from there. This will slow down trading considerably, and the Haggling rules have their own absurd winning strategy (offer $1 for your first bid), but that too has an easy counter: Make a new reaction roll based on the player's first offer. If they've bid less than 10%, that reaction roll is at -10, and they'll be lucky to not get thrown out of the store.

Ignore the whole thing: If the players are always going to get the Poleaxe at the book price, anyway, why spend time on rolling reaction rolls, merchant rolls, and the likes? They can have it for $120 and no more, but no less either. If there's no meaningful chance of failure, there's no reason to have a meaningful chance of success either.

12-15-2017, 09:16 AM	#12
Railstar Join Date: Jul 2012	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players If the PC starts off ridiculously low with their offers and then gradually raises the price by increments, the NPC merchant can do the same thing to the PC and keep refusing until he sees how far the PCs are willing to budge to.

12-15-2017, 09:45 AM	#14
Stormcrow Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ronkonkoma, NY	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players My wife sometimes watches those reality shows where people buy junk, fix it up, and sell it. I hear their "negotiations," where they're obviously just pretending to be considering the pros and cons of the offered price before saying no, that's too much/little, and suggesting something else. It's fairly ridiculous; it seems to be trying to force drama and complexity onto a fairly simple transaction: A: $Number? B: No, $number? A: No, $number? B: Ummm, okay. In the very few real haggling events I've been involved in, offering a revised number always involved altering what was being offered at the same time. A: $100 is too much for a doohickey, how about $50? B: No, but if you give me $90 I'll throw in a thingamabob. A: How about $75 for the doohickey, but you can keep the unobtanium that runs it, because I already have some? Etc. I recommend against dragging out the reality-show version, because it's silly. Just run that as a contest of Merchant skills, or something similar, until a number can be agreed upon. The more realistic haggling version can be played just as an interaction between player and GM. The GM can gauge the NPC's ability to haggle and offer appropriate alterations to the deal based on that; he can also gauge whether the NPC accepts counter-offers based on the PC's Merchant skill. Unless you really enjoy haggling, in which case you'll want to play it out yourself, I recommend just doing the contest of Merchant skill and arriving at a number that was negotiated behind the scenes.

12-15-2017, 01:28 PM	#16
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players I'd add that it's more interesting if you add character and exceptions to specific merchants, and have them remember and gossip about the experiences they've had with the PCs, so the PCs can develop relationships with specific merchants, and different merchants have different negotiating quirks or styles.

12-15-2017, 01:31 PM	#17
Bruno Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players Haggling can involve microscopically examining an item and picking out out trivial flaws as excuses for demanding a lower price, or as counter offers trivial features. It's basically a smoke-screen for just trying to dicker with the other guy, but it means that you have a justification for your counter offer. If you just say $60 for the $120 item that the vendor asked $240 for, that's annoying; you're not playing the game right, and many merchants in a haggling culture enjoy the game enough to tell you to buzz off. If you say $60 because look at this scratch here, and the edge looks a bit crude, and you question the origin of the steel, you're playing the game. The merchant can argue with you over those points (the scratch will buff out, what you can't sharpen your own axe?), brag about the origin of the steel and the pedigree of the smeltery, which is fun, and he can counter offer with saying surely you wouldn't pay less than $200 for steel from ACME Smelting? __________________ All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog

12-15-2017, 02:57 PM	#18
Railstar Join Date: Jul 2012	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players Another thing to mention is if the PCs get a reputation for asking for special treatment, as in demanding people sell things to them at far below market price or buy things off them for far above, then people are going to take for granted that any offer they make is going to be unreasonable. Reaction penalty right there. The other factor is the merchant might not have time to haggle. Another customer might walk in the door, whereupon the merchant says "this customer might be willing to buy something for something approaching what it's worth, excuse me while I try to sell to them instead." And then the merchant names a figure he'd accept and walks off. If the PCs get in the merchant's way and interrupts the rest of his business, more reaction penalties in future.

12-15-2017, 03:38 PM	#20
Gnaskar Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: How to do commercial transactions with smart players I suspect the rules are deliberately written so that in most cases, the price will end up being close to the book value of the item. Pretty much no matter how the reaction roll goes, the merchant is willing to sell at that value. It is, as Social Engineering calls it, a Fair Price. For my games, that's fine. If you want to change that assumption, however, there are a few ways we can tweak the rules. Change the price: Your player "knows" he can get a Poleaxe (I got tired of calling it a generic item) for $120, so if the price is more than that he should make a counter offer of $120. But $120 is just the average cost of a Poleaxe, not the cost of this particular Poleaxe from this particular blacksmith. If the price of metal in the area has gone slightly up because the local mine has a flu outbreak to deal with, then the fair price for a Poleaxe is going to go up to compensate. Conversely, if the Baron just cancelled an order for 50 poleaxes (after having paid half upfront), the blacksmith is likely to accept a lower price just to get the damn things out of his shop. You can freely and arbitrarily alter the local prices to suit your setting. You could even have the prices be off from the book value by (2d-7)5% whenever the players go shopping (making sure not to change the value until some time has passed). Change the table:* If you don't want a player who got a Bad reaction from a merchant to be able to pick up the Poleaxe at the "fair price" of $120, then simply rule that the minimum price for a Bad reaction is (for example) 125%. There's no reason to let the players see your updated table either. After all, it's not like their characters know that the merchant won't sell for a penny less than $150. Change the culture: What if we assume that any counter-offer from the players leads directly into the rules for Haggling, rather than the merchant deciding whether to take the offer or toss the players out immediately? In that case, the worst thing the players can do is use the fair price as their offer, because they can only go up from there. This will slow down trading considerably, and the Haggling rules have their own absurd winning strategy (offer $1 for your first bid), but that too has an easy counter: Make a new reaction roll based on the player's first offer. If they've bid less than 10%, that reaction roll is at -10, and they'll be lucky to not get thrown out of the store. Ignore the whole thing: If the players are always going to get the Poleaxe at the book price, anyway, why spend time on rolling reaction rolls, merchant rolls, and the likes? They can have it for $120 and no more, but no less either. If there's no meaningful chance of failure, there's no reason to have a meaningful chance of success either.