"Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that the Shire is a Classless Meritocracy. Since there is no Rank, the maximum Status available is 2 plus any received from Wealth. Bilbo would have probably been Status 2 because he possessed Wealth (Very Wealthy) and was from a good family while his grandfather would have been only Status 1 because of he possessed Wealth (Filthy Rich).

Which grandfather are we talking about? If you mean Gerontius, he was commander of the Shire's militia; and since the Shire seems not to have formal Military Rank, I think this has to reflect a combination of Status and Feudal Rank. There don't seem to be many other cases of Feudal Rank, I admit—perhaps the Master of Buckland—but this one was exercises by Bullroarer Took and also by Paladin Took, and perhaps by Peregrin. And the Thain seems to have been formally recognized by King Elessar as the chief noble of his people.

The chieftains of the twelve great families probably have a degree of Status available as an inheritance.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Bilbo seems to be a mix of very upper middle-class and minor aristocracy (the Shire really doesn't seem to have anything like major aristocracy, unless maybe the Tooks and Brandybucks).

One problem is that the Shire doesn't seem to have any titled aristocrats at all. In a world of feudal aristocracies, city-state principalities, and Anglo-Saxon Cossacks (thank you, Tough Guide to Fantasyland), that inevitably gives them at least the look of a semi-classless society. Not a meritocracy, exactly, though; there's a lot of differentiation by inherited wealth.

Actually, it's rural England, c. 1900, with no full-sized stately homes present, so the squire is gentry rather than aristocracy.

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

But I think you're right: the Shire is way beyond TL3 in all kinds of household comforts. If I were running a Middle-Earth game - and I have been thinking about it - I'd just gloss it over: there's lots of really nice stuff in the Shire, some of it of local manufacture and much of it bought from the Dwarves, but it doesn't make a difference for PCs shopping for adventuring gear and can be ignored as local color. I gather you'd take a similar approach?

If someone made me run a Middle Earth game (under GURPS), probably something like that, yeah. But that'd require a gun to my head, for a whole range of reasons.

Originally Posted by Kromm

A practical design trick is "average the TL and say who's +1 or +2, or -1 or -2." If you have TL2 here, TL3 there, and these fellows with TL5/6 in this corner, it's easiest to say the setting is TL4, with some residual TL2-3 cultures and one that's advanced (TL5) in some areas and very advanced (TL6) in others.

That's probably a very good approach. The only slight snag with Middle Earth is that it probably leads to one labeling the setting "TL4" when there's very little actual TL4 around; it's a mixture of the TL2/3 of Tolkien's academic specialisation and his TL6 upbringing and surroundings, romanticised down a level to TL5.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

He was certainly well-off - his father (largely with his mother's money, apparently), had built Bag End, which was basically an extremely comfortable residence. Maybe not the equivalent of a full-blown mansion, but definitely a very nice place to live, probably comfortably bigger than Bilbo alone needed.

The obvious peculiarity with Bag End and other large hobbit dwellings, as I recall them, is the lack of live-in domestic staff. That's pretty well impossible for high-Status dwellings before TL6, and even with a bit of hand-waving, makes it impossible for me to think of that place as more than the equivalent of a substantial Edwardian suburban villa or farm house - Status 1, maybe 2 with some hard squinting. I mean, this is what I think of as proper Edwardian "high Status".

Basically, before his adventures, Bilbo probably qualified as what 18th and 19th century Britain would call a "gentleman of leisure", someone who was sufficiently well-off that they could afford to not do much manual labor themselves.

Agreed - but a gentleman, not an aristocrat.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm pretty sure that the Shire really only had about three social classes: Gentry, farmers who had to work their own land (Farmer Maggot) and townsmen (small businessmen, publicans, etc.), and labourers. There might have been an under-class of 'unfortunates' who couldn't work and had no family, and the very upper layer of the gentry might in GURPS terms have an extra level of status but I don't think they were a whole separate class, socially. You can cover the whole range of residents with Status -1 to Status 3 in GURPS terms, IMO.

And the 3 is just a handful of people getting temporary boosts from social functions. Normally you need a minor title or something to get up there - see Steampunk 1, p. 37.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

With no military threat(to speak of) Hobbits don't need anything like a warrior class and have not evolved one. Maybe that is a large part of the reason for the difference.

The Edwardian aristocracy were (partly) descended from a warrior class, yes, though by that time the position was a function of old money, not military service.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

The obvious peculiarity with Bag End and other large hobbit dwellings, as I recall them, is the lack of live-in domestic staff. That's pretty well impossible for high-Status dwellings before TL6, and even with a bit of hand-waving, makes it impossible for me to think of that place as more than the equivalent of a substantial Edwardian suburban villa or farm house - Status 1, maybe 2 with some hard squinting. I mean, this is what I think of as proper Edwardian "high Status".

That actually makes me think of Marlinspike Hall. Other than Butler, do we ever see the rest of Tintin and the Captain's household staff?

I mean, the dusting and changing the lights alone would be a full-time job, let alone maintaining the walled park.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that the Shire is a Classless Meritocracy. Since there is no Rank, the maximum Status available is 2 plus any received from Wealth. Bilbo would have probably been Status 2 because he possessed Wealth (Very Wealthy) and was from a good family while his grandfather would have been only Status 1 because of he possessed Wealth (Filthy Rich).

I would also suggest that the Shrine is TL5 (TL3 weaponry and armor). The hobbits would be much wealthier than their human peers, as they would start with $5,000 of wealth while their human peers would start with $1,000 of wealth (though hobbits are settled, so 80% of their starting wealth purchases their settled property while 20% of their starting wealth purchases their adventuring equipment). Since Bilbo is Very Wealthy, he would have $80,000 of settled property and $20,000 of adventuring equipment. If he also possesses Independent Income 5, he also earns $5,000 per month (which covers his $3,000 per month cost of living).

Regarding wealth, IIRC, the Dwarves (after reclaiming Erebor) would generally be the wealthiest group around with the Hobbits & Men of the great city-states like Minas Tirith or the Men of the Lake and so on being the next wealthiest groups right?

Because I was looking through Adventures in Middle-Earth, the 5e D&D version of The One Ring RPG, and it listed the Dwarves as "Rich" and the Hobbits, Men of Bree, Men of Lake Town, & Men of Minas Tirith as "Prosperous", a step below "Rich" which is the highest starting point for wealth.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by warellis

Because I was looking through Adventures in Middle-Earth, the 5e D&D version of The One Ring RPG, and it listed the Dwarves as "Rich" and the Hobbits, Men of Bree, Men of Lake Town, & Men of Minas Tirith as "Prosperous", a step below "Rich" which is the highest starting point for wealth.

In the opening chapter of The Hobbit, Thorin tells Bilbo that the dwarves of Erebor, in the old days, made so much money from their mines and manufactures that they never bothered to grow food for themselves, but had it shipped in by men. In TL3 terms I think that properly counts as great wealth.

[warellis]

Since Middle-Earth gear is generally of Dark Ages-era/Early Middle Ages-era Europe, would that count as TL2 generally?

And what about stuff like longhouses and all that?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by warellis

Since Middle-Earth gear is generally of Dark Ages-era/Early Middle Ages-era Europe, would that count as TL2 generally?

Dark-/Early Middle-Ages is generally TL 3, not 2. The 4th Edition timeline for TL 3 suggests it starts in 600 A.D., around the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and there's arguments to be made that it should start earlier than that. I'd call Middle Earth tech pretty much solidly TL 3, barring weird exceptions like the Shire having Edwardian conveniences. Numenorean construction techniques might be TL 4 or even 5, but I don't think the Dunedain of the War of the Ring period could replicate those, so things like Orthanc or Minas Tirith are effectively un-duplicable wonders.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

And the 3 is just a handful of people getting temporary boosts from social functions. Normally you need a minor title or something to get up there - see Steampunk 1, p. 37.

Exactly. Bilbo, and Status-2 (and a slight negative reputation because of some odd behaviour by some of his ancestors) probably considered the current head of the Tooks and Brandybucks as first amongst equals, but he was certainly one of those equals himself. If he'd been so inclined, after he returned from the Lonely Mountain he could probably have gained a similar position and that extra little bit of status himself, but Bilbo seems to have rather liked not having to do much of anything other than a little household management and cooking to entertain his (outlandish) friends.

Frodo, had he not gotten all tangled up in the affairs of the outside world might have shown more interest. Samwise, a lower-class boy and local hero, did, once he'd come home.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

One problem is that the Shire doesn't seem to have any titled aristocrats at all.

Except for the Thain and the Master of Buckland.

Actually, it's rural England, c. 1900, with no full-sized stately homes present

Except for The Great Smials and Brandybuck Hall.

The obvious peculiarity with Bag End and other large hobbit dwellings, as I recall them, is the lack of live-in domestic staff.

1. We never see inside The Great Smials nor Brandybuck Hall.

2. We see implausibly little of servants in The House of Elrond, Galadriel's grand flet, Meduseld, the palace in Minas Tirith, or Orthanc, too.

That's pretty well impossible for high-Status dwellings before TL6

Yeah, and by "high-Status" we include the upper middle class. My grandparents were no aristocrats or even landowners, but the housekeepers, maids, cooks, nannies, and my Australian grandfather's chauffer-handyman lived in. Only gardeners and laundresses were "daily".

Middle-earth is a world without running water inside, without gas or electric heating, cooking, and light, without washing-machines or dishwashers, without vacuum cleaners or floor-buffers, without mixing machines or modern cleaning agents. Bilbo's home with its "whole rooms devoted to clothes", its larders stuffed with everything from beer and seed-cake to tea, coffee, wine, ale, pork-pies, cold chicken, and pickles, and its multiple rooms with clean floors and dusted furniture is not possible without a great deal of work. Wood chopped, water fetched, lamps cleaned and filled with oil, rugs swept, floors mopped, furniture dusted and polished, clothes washed, dried, ironed, and mended, elaborate dishes prepared and cooked, pots and dishes washed, kitchens and bathrooms scrubbed — all by hand. It's a great deal of work, and I don't believe the wealthy Mr Baggins did it all himself.

Tolkien was a middle-class man of his time: oblivious to the work of women and servants. He had no idea of how much work was being done for his convenience in his home and his college. No social historian, he was equally unaware how much housework had been saved when water and fuel (gas) became available at the turning of a tap, light at the flicking of a switch. The servants in Middle-earth are left out by an error of the author.

I see two options. One is to say that the servants are there, and possibly that the Shire is so peaceful that they don't have to live in, but that they just aren't mentioned much in the stories. The other is to say that for reasons best not explored there is drastically less housework to do in Middle-earth.

As for the Status of the Mr Baggins of Bag End, I think it is demonstrated best by the reaction to Frodo's return by the people of Hobbiton and Bywater. Without his leadership they grumble about the tyranny of Lotho Pimple, Sharky, and the Men, but do nothing about it. But on his giving the order they effect an uprising and revolution within twelve hours. Frodo is immensely influential in that area. Though untitled, he is plainly an aristocrat.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I agree that the Shire is at least TL5 in many respects (the Edwardian age of Tolkien's childhood was TL6, but there's no electrical technology in sight, and in fact the whole milieu is pre-Industrial Revolution), and the clock has a Victorian feel to it. But I don't think you can call Bilbo "ordinary middle-class." He's THE Mr. Baggins, the head of one of the Shire's twelve principal clans; his father Bungo was thought well enough of to be able to marry one of the Old Took's three remarkable daughters, and the Took was the Thain, the leader of the Shiremuster and the highest-ranking chieftain in the Shire—the Tookland wasn't quite as autonomous as the Buckland, but there's a strong flavor of regional distinction about it. And we know that Bungo got a fair bit of money from Belladonna's portion. (The Tooks are not as respectable as the Bagginses, though they are certainly richer.) Bilbo seems to be a mix of very upper middle-class and minor aristocracy (the Shire really doesn't seem to have anything like major aristocracy, unless maybe the Tooks and Brandybucks).

All the more reason for the Sackville-Bagginses to be so anxious to inherit his estate.

Wasn't Lotho Baggins from that branch? He became the puppet ruler of the Shire under Saruman, which suggests his bloodline gave an appearance of legitimacy to Saruman's rule.