[AtE] Heirloom tech?

[Kromm]

Lastly you have common "junk" items that depend on a high baseline tech to create, and that don't decay easily.

Plastic bags and bottles are a great start: These may last for 200, 400, perhaps 1,000 years. We toss them away all the time, but they would be fantastically lightweight water carriers, or let a society sidestep the need to figure out how to make glass for many purposes that would in turn enable tech jumps. There are so many in dumps and landfills that if an apocalypse killed most of the world, it would take tens of generations to deplete the supply of "new" salvage, and of course those already salvaged would continue to serve.

Aluminum cans, caps, and foil fall into this category, too.

If you want to go all Mad Max, it isn't hard to imagine flexible armor made from layered plastic garbage bags and bits of aluminum. It would look like garbage, but it would likely be at least as good as anything made from natural materials, and it would depend on low-risk, low-labor salvage, not high-risk, high-labor farming and hunting.

[(E)]

A few odd and disorganized thoughts.
Locally there is a working immersion pump that supplies a small town and once supplied a factory that hasn't even been lifted for maintenance since it put down in the 60s.
Genetics can last forever, some plant and animal improvements increase yields significantly.
With the assumption of an Austrailian outback setting, many older station setups (shearing sheds, workshops etc) would be left to sit when technology improves.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you want to go all Mad Max, it isn't hard to imagine flexible armor made from layered plastic garbage bags and bits of aluminum. It would look like garbage, but it would likely be at least as good as anything made from natural materials, and it would depend on low-risk, low-labor salvage, not high-risk, high-labor farming and hunting.

IIRC in a previous thread, there was discussion around making a form of Lorica segmentata out of industrial conveyor belts.

But for the rest of the non vehicular related point that you raised, and the suggestion that (E) made, my initial questions were motivated by my current proposed game setting, is the Wimmera, a broadacre farming district with excellent soil, and far enough from the major cities that it didn't have to deal with an influx of urban refugees.

If there is one thing I'll say about Wimmera farmers, it's that they're hoarders. If there's a piece of machinery that worked fine for their parents, they probably have a working example (as well as a couple extra for harvesting spare parts from). And then there's the minutiae of tools that can commonly be found in any rural blue collar Australian bloke's shed aka workshop.

The capacity to jury rig and improvise is there. TBH, my only issue was how transport would look AtE.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

(SNIP)

The capacity to jury rig and improvise is there. TBH, my only issue was how transport would look AtE.

Probably something like that: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ro...-25238781.html .

I saw those everywhere in Romania. They were probably more reliable than the Dacias. :)

[Keampe]

Something to think about - why hasn't industry started back up again after 75 years?

I would think that TL 5 industry could be up and running fairly quickly - unless there is some outside force preventing it.

This leaves you with new TL5/early 6 vehicles and TL5/early 6 refining of oil.

Your Model T fits in here, and probably could be made with TL5 tools.

Unless all the oil is gone for some reason or some factor is preventing industry from forming, you'd probably have some primitive IC engine vehicles around for those who could afford them. Transport with them would be limited to the area around where the fuel is but depending on how much fuel is available it may be shipped quite far away.

Also, ethanol, gasifiers, bio-diesel, and sheer obstinance might keep some vehicles working for longer than one would expect. For an example of this look at cars in Cuba. They've kept some of these going since the 50's without access to factory parts and some still look new on the outside.

Just some thoughts
- Shane

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Kromm

One important category of artifacts is unpowered tools. That includes not only bits, chisels, hammers, etc. used for construction and maintenance, but also various gadgets for cooking, drafting, gardening, surgery, and nearly every other complex practical skill.

IIRC, enameling, industrial metal-plating (e.g., zinc- or nickel-plating) and mass production were the big TL5 innovations for ordinary goods. Bakelite, aluminum, chrome-plating, and borosilicate glass were the big innovations at TL6. PVC, PMMA, stainless steel, and Teflon were the big innovations at TL7, and high-tech ceramics, improved stainless steel alloys, high-temperature plastics, simple nano-materials, and ergonomic design are the big TL8 innovations.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Many of these tools only seem low-tech. The most recent versions are made to far finer tolerances than ever before possible in human history – they involve straighter lines, keener edges, more precise markings, improved mechanisms, and better ergonomics (allowing closer work or longer work days).

As a hypothetical rule of thumb, assume that manufacturing tolerances are equal to 0.1^(TL-3) to a minimum of +/-0.1. That is, the best TL3-4 guns can be manufactured to tolerances of +/-0.1 caliber, the best TL 5 guns to +/-0.01 caliber, or the best TL 8 guns to +/-0.00001 caliber. Likewise, assume that defects or variations in in mass-produced goods are equal to 100/(10^TL)%. That gives you Sigma Six quality at TL8. Perhaps add a couple of decimal places for Fine-Quality goods.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Materials merit special thought. Despite the popular tendency to describe everything today as "cheap," that's only really true of mass-market tools that put price point ahead of functionality. Many relatively high-tech materials have exceedingly long, functionally indefinite lifespans. An important example is metals that don't corrode on the timescale of mere generations: aluminum, brass, stainless steel, precious metals, etc. Another is plastics; durable plastics have lifetimes measured in centuries, which is why they're a horrendous environmental hazard.

This is a function of being able to get devices from a previous TL at knock-down prices. It's not unreasonable to assume that simple or mass-produced goods of 2+ TL lower than the current TL are available at some fraction of their original cost. ((Current TL - TL of introduction) x10% cost reduction? Or, maybe 0.1^(TL-TL of introduction) cost?) Alternately, "Fine" quality goods might be available for the price of Good quality items at the previous TL, and Good quality goods might be available at the price of Cheap quality items.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by (E)

With the assumption of an Australian outback setting, many older station setups (shearing sheds, workshops etc) would be left to sit when technology improves.

I'm setting my game in a former agricultural college and research station, which just happens to be once upon a time, a workplace of mine. And yes, they did have some interesting stuff down the back of some of their sheds...

[(E)]

Seeing as I run a sheep (forestry, calf rearing and beef) farm here are three sets of machinery from 1) the farm I managed before moving to my current location. 2) what was left behind by the previous owner of the place I'm on now and 3) what I have now.

1) 6 quads, 1 side by side, 1 two wheeler, 3 tractors, 3 9ish ton trucks, 1 ute, 1 27 ton digger, numerous portable power plants.

2) 1 tractor, 1 two wheeler, 23 non functioning alpha romeos (yes 23), 1 antique flame thrower,

3) 1 ute, 1 side by side, 1 van, 2 kids vehicals, 1 tractor, 1 generator, 1 portable compressor, 2 portable water pump, 3 chainsaws.

I would say the average shearing shed would have a generator and numerous electric shearing plants, probably a hydraulic wool press as well. Older ones might have a central power plant and belt drives running around the shed.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by (E)

(W)hat was left behind by the previous owner of the place I'm on now .... 1 tractor, 1 two wheeler, 23 non functioning alpha romeos (yes 23), 1 antique flame thrower...

This is so going in as a random encounter. Mind you, I might be a bastard, and make them all Renaults...

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

If you can recharge your battery, you can probably recharge your electric vehicle.

The difference here isn't so much charging capacity but battery life. Electric vehicle batteries are not terribly long lasting lithium ion things the require exotic materials, and self ignite if you open them up. Lead-acid batteries are much simpler two century old technology anybody who can cast lead and make sulfuric acid can probably put together a working version of.

A modern vehicle of either sort is a complicated machine made of lots of fragile parts you will be hard pressed to keep functioning, but the mechanical core of an electric vehicle is simpler - electric motors are quite simple and durable machines - if you had a battery powerful enough to power it.

Incidentally the primary source of low tech "high" power is the water wheel. Hydroelectricity is much simpler than solar or steam plants. People tend to forget about it a lot.