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Old 12-01-2022, 06:34 PM   #1
sazzlefrats
 
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Default Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

I was thinking of a driver, and then 3 handgunners in a luxury car with Heavy AV Rifles.

I know the to hit isn't great, but...

1. How many of them can fire out the left or right side of a car at a time? Can they fire forward or rearward?

2. Can I use component armor (not that I understand how in the world handgunners can have component armor and be able to fire out the windows)?

3. If I got extra creative... can I do the same with vans.... 24 spaces... thats like 8 gunners!! Maybe...

4. Heavy AV Rifle... to hit 8, from a car, -1, with scope, +1, and handgunner +1, so to hit 7
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Old 12-01-2022, 11:08 PM   #2
HeatDeath
 
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Compendium 2e (1996):

p. 38:
Hand weapons fired from a car have a right or left arc of fire, depending on what side they're fired from.

p. 72:
Driver sits on the right or left, assigned at build time.
No word on whether the gunner has an assigned side.
Passengers can use hand weapons. [No further qualifiers are provided.]

So my read is that anyone you want to be able to fire hand weapons needs to be assigned to a side of the car - left or right.

Given that, there's no limit on how many crew can fire out of one side of the car, but they're stuck to their assigned seats. You could have a driver, a gunner, and 8 passengers all sitting on the left side of the car, assuming you've allocated spaces and weights for them, and they could all fire out that side of the vehicle. No front or back arcs though.

p. 108:
"Component armor ... can protect anything else in the vehicle."
Despite one reference distinguishing between components and occupants, several sections clearly use the word component to include crew, so yes, you can component armor crew. and no, not a single word implies that component-armored crew can't fire out the side they're sitting on.

So yes, large numbers of component-armored gunner/passengers firing hand weapons out of the side of your vehicle. Left or right, but only one, and you have to allocate them at build-time.

Driver fires at -3, gunners and passengers fire at -1. Laser scope and handgunner skill give +1 each - your math looks correct that it settles in to a base to-hit of 7.

p. 73:
"No more than 1/3 of the spaces in a vehicle can be devoted to weapons that fire from any one side." Comnponent-armored passenger seats are manifestly not weapons.

Passenger: 1 spaces, 150 lbs, no cost
Heavy AV Rifle: No spaces, $900 fully loaded wiith 10 shots, 25 lbs
Laser Targeting Scope: No spaces, no weight, $500
Component armor: 1 space, 2 lbs per point, $5 per point

So for a total of 2 spaces, 175 + 2xarmor# lbs, and $1400 + $5*armor# , you've got a "weapon" system that you can stack as many of as you want in a broadside on the side of your vehicle, completely circumventing the 1/3 spaces rule.

Ar 1d+3 damage, base to-hit of 7, 10 shots, 2 spaces, and $1415 for 6 damage points (3 points of armor plus the person's 3 damage points), it compares /very/ favorably to a standard machine gun, even before you take into account the broadside capability.

Yes, yes, you're very clever. Your fellow players will spend the entire evening tearing their compendiums apart trying to find verbiage that prevents this, instead of actually fighting your car :D
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Old 12-02-2022, 09:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Its funny in 30+ years of playing the game I never thought of this before. Its not viable in the event I am running (17.5k off road race), I might be able to pull off 3 handgunners. And its expensive.

I do recall left and right fire arcs, now that you mention it. I did not recall having to declare seating locations from the get go, but that totally makes sense.

Here's more thoughts i had

1. how many guys can sit in a pickup truck bed and shoot?

2. Oh nice.. passengers take up 1 space and can fire hand weapons.

Last edited by sazzlefrats; 12-02-2022 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 12-02-2022, 09:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

If you want to be a bit more space efficient you can put 2 or more passengers into each CA (it doubles the cost and weight, but not the space).

I do this on my PSVs with pairs of seats each side of the aisle, each protected by a shared CA. In this configuration I only allow the outside passenger to fire, the aisle passenger can not. Occasionally the bus companies run a vehicle with wholly mercenary passenger manifest to discourage bandit activity (

My rule of thumb is only 1 passenger for each 1/4" of vehicle counter. So in theory the maximum number of firing passengers on a 1" x 1/2" counter is 7 (plus one for the driver) regardless of how much actual space you have.

At design time I allow the driver and gunner to have a front port (like chassis and crossbow weapons), the back two passengers can have a rear port instead of a side one, but the middle 4 can only fire out of the side they sit on.

If the counters were scaled to the vehicles I'd probably allow less passengers in say a compact, but there has seldom been enough space anyway for it to be an issue. High vehicles (10 wheeler and trailers) could probably double that without stretching plausibility too far.

In most standard area bouts you can only have a driver and a gunner as crew so your passengers wouldn't be allowed to play. It's fine for gang gunships and road fights though.

If the game had realistic economics though all that extra crew would cost a lot to support (though a skilled hand gunner might not command the same salary as an equally skilled gunner or driver).

Heat Death is probably correct in that it is more fun as a pen and paper exercise than actually getting other players to accept it.
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Old 12-02-2022, 10:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Pickup bed, I'd say logically 4 firers is about the limit, and even though they should have 360 arcs, I wouldn't want to be in one if my buddy on the other side of a moving pickup was firing across the bed and past me to hit someone on the other side. I'd say they would have the fire arc of a sponson unless the vehicle was actually stationary.

Sunroof it depends on the car, in theory any passenger. Consider a pickup, take the roof off and you could have two people standing on the bench seat. If you had a sedan everyone (except the driver) could stand on their seat to fire. Again though, they wouldn't all have 360 arcs of fire as once you put that one person in there the other people will limit LOS.

The trouble is that CW cars don't necessarily look like normal cars. They are probably slab-sided and boxy (as streamlining takes extra space from the body) and the passenger seats could face to the side for all we know. All we do know is the rules say any passenger can fire out of a side arc chosen at design time, so I'd limit yourself to that.

Gang Banger by Swordtart:
Sedan; Extra Heavy chassis; Improved suspension;
Large PP w/PCs, SCs, HTMs;
4 Plasticore tires with 1pt plastic hubs on all wheels and 2 point guards on rear wheels.
Driver w/BA+ABV, Personal Fire Extinguisher.
5xPassenger in single 10pt CA compartment.
192 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 40 R: 40 L: 40 B: 40 T: 10 U: 20);

Cost: $14,657, Wgt: 6,120,
HC: 2, Top Speed: 97.5 (72.5), Accel: 5 (10).

This doesn't include cost of passenger equipment but 25lb has been allowed per passenger for personal equipment if you use the alt encumbrance rules. If not you have 125lb to use for armour (maybe extend that CA onto the driver as well).

My assumption here is that 1 passenger sits in the front alongside the driver and the other 4 are in 2 rows of seats behind (2 x 2 x 2 if you include the driver) putting three guns out of each side arc if the driver was to fire as well. With un-scoped SMGs or ARs this wouldn't be that expensive and would be pretty effective anti-personnel vehicle/HS nibbler. If you expecting to terrorise a town you might swap out some plastic armour to put three points of metal on the sides and hubs and make it even cheaper. You could toss the plasticores and buy a cheaper lighter type and upgrade the guards in compensation. With ultra cheapo shotguns (with extended magazines) you could bring it in for under $11K and still go pedestrian (or tire) hunting with relative impunity (and it would be more sensible than having the same number of VSGs).

AVR or HAVR is more expensive but allows you to have a pretty effective punch against even decently armoured vehicles, but if your opponents had the same money to spend on a conventional design they would probably be more effective.

Last edited by swordtart; 12-02-2022 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Pickup bed, I'd say logically 4 firers is about the limit, and even though they should have 360 arcs, I wouldn't want to be in one if my buddy on the other side of a moving pickup was firing across the bed and past me to hit someone on the other side. I'd say they would have the fire arc of a sponson unless the vehicle was actually stationary.

Sunroof it depends on the car, in theory any passenger. Consider a pickup, take the roof off and you could have two people standing on the bench seat. If you had a sedan everyone (except the driver) could stand on their seat to fire. Again though, they wouldn't all have 360 arcs of fire as once you put that one person in there the other people will limit LOS.

The trouble is that CW cars don't necessarily look like normal cars. They are probably slab-sided and boxy (as streamlining takes extra space from the body) and the passenger seats could face to the side for all we know. All we do know is the rules say any passenger can fire out of a side arc chosen at design time, so I'd limit yourself to that.

Gang Banger by Swordtart:
Sedan; Extra Heavy chassis; Improved suspension;
Large PP w/PCs, SCs, HTMs;
4 Plasticore tires with 1pt plastic hubs on all wheels and 2 point guards on rear wheels.
Driver w/BA+ABV, Personal Fire Extinguisher.
5xPassenger in single 10pt CA compartment.
192 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 40 R: 40 L: 40 B: 40 T: 10 U: 20);

Cost: $14,657, Wgt: 6,120,
HC: 2, Top Speed: 97.5 (72.5), Accel: 5 (10).

This doesn't include cost of passenger equipment but 25lb has been allowed per passenger for personal equipment if you use the alt encumbrance rules. If not you have 125lb to use for armour (maybe extend that CA onto the driver as well).

My assumption here is that 1 passenger sits in the front alongside the driver and the other 4 are in 2 rows of seats behind (2 x 2 x 2 if you include the driver) putting three guns out of each side arc if the driver was to fire as well. With un-scoped SMGs or ARs this wouldn't be that expensive and would be pretty effective anti-personnel vehicle/HS nibbler. If you expecting to terrorise a town you might swap out some plastic armour to put three points of metal on the sides and hubs and make it even cheaper. You could toss the plasticores and buy a cheaper lighter type and upgrade the guards in compensation. With ultra cheapo shotguns (with extended magazines) you could bring it in for under $11K and still go pedestrian (or tire) hunting with relative impunity (and it would be more sensible than having the same number of VSGs).

AVR or HAVR is more expensive but allows you to have a pretty effective punch against even decently armoured vehicles, but if your opponents had the same money to spend on a conventional design they would probably be more effective.

See now we are getting places. I've decided its possible to pull this off in my event after all. 6 Handgunners and a driver, in a luxury car, so I'm assuming its a small limo vs a lincoln continental.

Just a quicky,... since I'm also looking at trikes.... can you use a cycle windshell with a trike?
X-hvy trike, Hvy Chassis, OR Suspension, Turbo 150cid, 5 gal tank, OR PR tires, with 10pt guards. 151pts armor, 4 Handgunners with Hvy AV Rifles, scopes and CA armor each. Driver also has his own CA armor.

Having a hard time imagining what this looks like in real life though.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:36 PM   #7
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Pickup bed, I'd say logically 4 firers is about the limit, and even though they should have 360 arcs.
Fifteen yard penalty - using the L-word in Car Wars. I'd allow the entire bed to be filled with firers.

[Unrelated note - way back in '85 I played a 3X Chassis and Crossbow event using the refinery scenario from ADQ 1-3. It was the only time I've rolled a 12 when throwing a grenade and it was to hit the bed of a pickup filled with road scum. Of note was that Margaret Weis of Dragonlance fame was playing in the same game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
The trouble is that CW cars don't necessarily look like normal cars. All we do know is the rules say any passenger can fire out of a side arc chosen at design time, so I'd limit yourself to that.
Yes. It's possible to fire into the vehicle from the left side and hit a passenger with a right side firing arc (completely missing a left side firing arc passenger.)

However, nothing says they have to sit side by side to begin with.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

_INS-4D_ -- Div. 5 Subcompact carrying Passenger with HAVR, and at least 6 pts. Metal armor on the four main facings.

Despite NOVA's worst attempts at cheating: Unit has never been defeated in an arena fight. >:)

For reference: Passengers do not have "assigned facings" -- never have. However, as I play it: It does take a firing action to *change* the facing the Passenger is firing from (this can be combined with "reloading" -- Turn A, he fires his last round; Turn B, he pulls the weapon in, and reloads; Turn C, he may select which facing he wants to fire from).

Cycle Windshells are for Cycles -- Trikes are enclosed.
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Old 12-02-2022, 02:45 PM   #9
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HAV Rifle abuse?

Hayride -- Van, Standard chassis, Light suspension, Large power plant, 10-pt CA (Power Plant), Fire Extinguisher, 4 Heavy-Duty tires, Driver w/BA and 10-pt CA, Passenger w/BA and 10-pt CA and Heavy Anti-Vehicular Rifle, Passenger w/BA and 10-pt CA and Heavy Anti-Vehicular Rifle, 4 Passengers each w/BA and 10-pt CA and Anti-Vehicular Rifle, Rocket Launcher Front w/10-pt CA, Smoke Mini Rockets Left and Right and Back each w/10-pt CA, Sunroof, Plastic Armor: F14, L11, R11, B12, T6, U6, 2 10-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 10-pt Wheelhubs Front, Cargo: [1 space, 25 lbs.], Acceleration 5, Top Speed 90, HC 0, 5975 lbs., $15000

The key feature is 1 of the 6 peds can fire through the sunroof like a turret. When the man with the HAV Rifle gets killed, the man beside him picks up the rifle and shoots...
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Old 12-03-2022, 12:44 AM   #10
swordtart
 
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Default Re: Heavy AV Rifle... abuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post

For reference: Passengers do not have "assigned facings" -- never have.
"The locations of drivers, gunners and passengers must still be
stated for determining their firing arcs." CWC 2.5 p41
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