Talent System

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by platimus

.. I'd really like to. CJM's approach seems the best to me but I would want to keep the changes to a bare minimum. The original ITL rules are so exquisite. ...

Hi all, Platiumus.
I've said this elsewhere but no harm adding it to the talent thread

-- Like CJM and Platiumus suggest, I REALLY like the idea of having at least 3 levels of talents for all the major things people can specialize in. Heroes really need some powerful, hard to get talents, that help them compete with high level wizards.

-- I think that talents are too expensive compared to spells. I think some rule change should be made to allow normal IQ figures to buy more talents. (If talents were cheaper, less people would be wanting to add rules for education and the like.)

-- David B. has argued well, that when ever possible we should avoid using high Attribute prerequisites for talents. (The next time I revise my talent list, I'll be toning down attribute requirements.)

-- How long it takes to learn talents may want to be looked at.

-- The terrible punishment for forgetting a study, needs to be toned down.

Warm regards, Rick.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi all, Platiumus.
I've said this elsewhere but no harm adding it to the talent thread

-- Like CJM and Platiumus suggest, I REALLY like the idea of having at least 3 levels of talents for all the major things people can specialize in. Heroes really need some powerful, hard to get talents, that help them compete with high level wizards.

-- I think that talents are too expensive compared to spells. I think some rule change should be made to allow normal IQ figures to buy more talents. (If talents were cheaper, less people would be wanting to add rules for education and the like.)

-- David B. has argued well, that when ever possible we should avoid using high Attribute prerequisites for talents. (The next time I revise my talent list, I'll be toning down attribute requirements.)

-- How long it takes to learn talents may want to be looked at.

-- The terrible punishment for forgetting a study, needs to be toned down.

Warm regards, Rick.

Hi Rick,
I suggested none of these things. Please read my post again. It was fairly short so it shouldn't take too long. I'll quote it here so you don't have to scroll too far.

Rules remain the same at character creation time. If you've got IQ8, you get 8 points of Talents and the cost of those Talents remain the same as previously printed. After creation, additional Talents and Spells are acquired by speding EP. EP cost = IQ cost * 100 for Talents. EP cost = IQ level * 10 for Spells. IQ level requirements remain in play. That's it. That's all I would change.

Sincerely, Paul.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by platimus

Hi Rick,
I suggested none of these things. Please read my post again. It was fairly short so it shouldn't take too long. I'll quote it here so you don't have to scroll too far.

Sincerely, Paul.

HI Paul,
I agreed with the parts of your post which I quoted.

Warm regards, Rick.

[ecz]

Originally Posted by CJM

My thoughts on Talents (ITL) are that they should have three levels and that they should originally be bought with IQ points, but after that they should be leveled up with experience points. Each level would have of course prerequisites. This would help some with the bloat on attributes, the forgetting talents rule that makes room for another talent, increasing IQ to be able to gain more talents, and with talents you could address issues like perception (instead of adding a perception attribute). Also I would like to see that the talents not just give a +1, +2, +3 type of progression. But something that gives you something each level. For example you buy sword with your IQ points at the beginning of character generation. At the first level you are proficient in the use of a sword. then at the second level you might have learned to defend yourself better with it so it makes it harder for your opponent to hit you maybe a -3 to their attack roll. At the third level you might be able to disarm your foe with, lets say, a 4d vs DX roll. These are broad base ideas, I'm not a game designer, but this might help organize the system and solve problems that we are discussing on this forum. I believe if done right that it would give a stair stepping approach to improving your character. A lot can be done with talents that could increases mana to cast spells, giving extra hit points to increase the survival rate for characters, so on and so forth...
My thoughts anyway.

good ideas that changes the basics of the game.

If we want a ITL back to life is one thing, if we want a different game is another.

I would take the game as it is now, with a few necessary fixes about talents, combat and a few adds and improvements in the GM's book ( Economic system, world, etc etc... as written elsewhere in this forum).

[Rick_Smith]

Hi all,
This section of the rules, I believe, can use some revision.

-- How long does it take to learn talents? If you pick up a study on Tuesday morning, can you learn the talent Tuesday afternoon? (I think a 'realistic' amount of time is 3 months times the memory cost of the talent. So if you want to learn Running (2), then it would cost 6 months. However, many GM's and almost all players prefer that PC's can pick up talents faster. 1 month of study per mIQ could work.)

-- Penalty for dropping a study. In ITL page 16, 2nd column, paragraph 9, it says, that if you wish to drop a study, it costs you 1,000 experience points or 1/2 of the experience needed to go up an attribute, WHICH EVER IS MORE! Is there ANY TFT game masters who actually used this rule??? Picking the wrong study is a mistake most commonly made by new players. So this rule will brutally punish new players. I you want to have some penalty for dropping studies, I suggest that the GM EITHER: (1) says that no new study can replace the abandoned one for 2 game months, OR (2) give a flat 1/5th of an attribute's worth of experience penalty if the GM does not want to keep track of things for 2 game months.

-- Forgetting Talents. These rules are on page 9, but they would be easier to find if they were on page 16. (So put how to learn and forget talents and spells together.).

-- Forgetting Spells. The rules for this are on page 9 of ITL, not in advanced wizard. Either put these together, or at least have a cross reference.

-- Forgetting spells (and talents) with Wishes. Somewhere in the rules, (I think, can't find it now), it says you can use a wish to instantly forget a talent. However, this is not in the 'how to forget' section of the rules, or in the 'wish powers' section. Better organization please.

Comments are welcome.
Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Yeah, the weird aspects of the talent system that you just mentioned came up very soon after we started playing.

Running out of IQ storage space and being unable to learn any more unless you increased your IQ seemed very weird. Paying the Wizard's Guild to erase some talents from your mind so you could have room for a different talent was hilarious and creative but even more weird. Losing a massive amount of Experience Points for wanting to switch what Talent you were studying just seemed clearly wrong and we never used and vetoed that with confidence even at age 12 with one year of play experience.

I don't think the study times need to be faster, especially if characters can change what they're studying in advance at will, just noting the start date, in advance of having the EP to get the Talent. Of course, it could be suggested that GM's can specify a longer or shorter time, and/or require a trainer, use of time, and/or equipment or other circumstances. And some talents may not be learnable at all - I don't think everyone's really up to "learning" Acute Hearing or Charisma, for example.

I've said it before, but I think something like what Platimus suggested (being able to spend EP for Talents without raising IQ) combined with nice higher-level Talents, could be a great cure for attribute bloat, Conan the Wizard, and various other issues of high-experience characters.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yeah, the weird aspects of the talent system that you just mentioned came up very soon after we started playing. ...

I've said it before, but I think something like what Platimus suggested (being able to spend EP for Talents without raising IQ) combined with nice higher-level Talents, could be a great cure for attribute bloat, Conan the Wizard, and various other issues of high-experience characters.

Hi all, Skarg.
My first draft of my superscript rules, allowed people to buy memory (mIQ), for experience, but they didn't increase the character's attribute total. I found that this really twisted character development. My players bought endless mIQ and just racked up more and more talents.

I don't really mind being able to buy talents, with experience, but it needs to increase the attribute total somehow. I've experienced it NOT working that way for several years and was unhappy with it. The most over powered characters were ALL from that period of my campaign.

(If you do allow this, make buying talents expensive. If I were to try this again, I would cost buying one memory for at least a full attribute.)

Virtually everyone agrees we want heroes to be able to get more talents. I feel my superscript rules are too complex for the new TFT. So I've been pushing for simply lowering the memory cost of all talents. It would keep things VERY simple, and allow more flexible characters with more talents. (If we also add more talents, players will still have plenty of things to spend that mIQ on.)

Warm regards, Rick.

[Terquem]

I might, might, be the one person who disagrees.

I don't think the characters in a fantasy game should have pages of talents. I understand (I think I understand?) why players want their characters to have many talents, for me it is a reflection of how games have evolved from many years ago when a party of adventurers took on the challenges of an adventure to developments where a single character takes on the adventure alone (Tomb Raider, and such adventures).

I like player characters who have a simple, short list of talents and can compliment other characters with different talents.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Terquem

I might, might, be the one person who disagrees.

I don't think the characters in a fantasy game should have pages of talents. I understand (I think I understand?) why players want their characters to have many talents, for me it is a reflection of how games have evolved from many years ago when a party of adventurers took on the challenges of an adventure to developments where a single character takes on the adventure alone (Tomb Raider, and such adventures).

I like player characters who have a simple, short list of talents and can compliment other characters with different talents.

I agree completely, though some things like forgetting talents etc. probably could use a going over and rethink, as well as placement in the rules.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by ecz

good ideas that changes the basics of the game.

If we want a ITL back to life is one thing, if we want a different game is another.

I would take the game as it is now, with a few necessary fixes about talents, combat and a few adds and improvements in the GM's book ( Economic system, world, etc etc... as written elsewhere in this forum).

THIS. I really hope we get a nice reprint with a modern presentation as SJ put it before any major rule changes. I think we all know how to house-rule something we don't like.