Quick question on geases

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DAlillama

Theoretically, a Lilim can pay back all of those Geases without incurring any more, and then Lilth wouldn't have any hold on her either.

True, although theory and practice tend to diverge sharply. Either IPG or Superiors: Lilith notes that the Princess is very reluctant to give up that last Geas, known informally as "Mother's Token." In fact, the odds of a modern Tempter knowing any Sister who had become "completely Free" are likely slim to none.

But yes, it's possible. ;)

[rknop]

There's also the dark secret that most Brights still owe a Geas or two to *somebody*.... Probably not so bad if they owe a single small Geas to Lilith, as long as they don't **** her off too bad. But it can be ugly if they still owe it to a demon prince. See "Fall of the Malakim" for an example of how bad it can get.

(Edit : wild... the acronymization of Palomar Infrared Spectrometer System is a dirty word and gets *'ed out!)

[JCD]

I differ with all the responses so far, and here is why.

Yes, but!

If Byle the Belserpah and Laura Lilim are talking on the phone, then they could absolutely give a Geas to one another, as per Lilith. Any being who can actively manipulate Essence can freely give their geas. The phone is irrelevant.

I further feel that the Lilim, Bright or otherwise, CAN detect a Geas over a video phone (Not from dead media), just as the section of Core Rules:

Celestial Resonance Check Digit Modifiers

+2......physical contact with the subject
+1......within 1 yard of the subject
-1 ......direct line of sight, from 10 to 50 yards away
-1 ......audio and video reproduction
-2 ......audio reproduction only (phone conversation,
tape recording)
-3 ......visual reproduction only (photo, video)

Technology has given angels and demons sophisticated
ways to use their celestial resonances, at the cost of
reducing their effects. When using a resonance through
a technological medium, GMs should always apply the
appropriate check digit modifiers – except for the Cherubim
and Djinn, to whom the modifiers don’t apply.

The only sticking point is seeing an eye. Phone no, video confrencing, yes.

Since the rules for Brights are spread over a book or five, I don't have every rule for Brights.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

How is that even possible, not to take Lilith's Rites and such? Also, they still have the geases they owe to her, right?

Lilith's Word is Freedom. If she was to force the Lilim to take her Rites and Dissonance Condition - or, for that matter, force anyone to do anything - she'd be acting against her Word. That's why she trades favours (and uses geases to make the trades stick).

As for the geases... yes, they're still there. But Free Lilim seem to work off as many as they can, as quickly as they can.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

True, although theory and practice tend to diverge sharply. Either IPG or Superiors: Lilith notes that the Princess is very reluctant to give up that last Geas, known informally as "Mother's Token." In fact, the odds of a modern Tempter knowing any Sister who had become "completely Free" are likely slim to none.

But yes, it's possible. ;)

I'm told that the Archangel of Archives was a Free who worked off her "Mother's Token". Granted, she was already a Bright by the time she managed that, but it happened.

(Yes, that's not canon. But it's something the Line Editor came up with, so it could be canon...)

[JCD]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Okay, two quick question on geases.

1) Would someone be able to get a geas on someone if the agreement is over the phone?

For instance, I'm on the phone with a Lilim and I ask for a favor from them. In return I will owe them a favor. Will she get a geas from that or does the agreement have to be face to face?

2) What kind of information can the Lilim get from a geas they hold over someone else?

For instance, using the same example, would she be able to find out any information I did not give her?

I know I am probably just complicating things but I am curious now.

To be a bit more specific. From Superiors: Lilith:

Anyone consciously able to expend Essence may, if he
wishes, promise a favor to a Lilim – specified or unspecified.
She need only exert her will (no roll required, just a round of
concentration, but the subject must not resist) and the Geas
will manifest.

Note the lack of mention of Needs, Gazes, Sunglasses, etc. I believe this means that I can swear a geas over the phone, both as a giver or as a recpient.

Now, using the table I posted above from Core Rules, one would be justified in specifying that one could not hook any geas stronger then a level 4 (from the -2 modifier to the check digit)


As to the second question...what is the cost and consequences of the information? Let us say that we had a random Lilim named Kaylen. She wanted to get some information from Alex the Lilim. The easiest metric is what would happen to Alex if her 'squealing' was detected. If her Prince would drop on her like a ton of bricks, then that suggests a far different cost then 'the police might ask you some questions.' The geas mechanics chart on Lilith page 38.

A harder metric is what is the information worth! If Lilith were to sell the true Identity of Janus and Valfor, it would be worth multiple geas/6. The use name of a Servitor of Theft would perhaps cost a geas/2. The TRUE name of a Calabim of Belial would be a geas/3 or more. So too would a password for an encrypted computer of high value.

YMMV

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

True, although theory and practice tend to diverge sharply. Either IPG or Superiors: Lilith notes that the Princess is very reluctant to give up that last Geas, known informally as "Mother's Token." In fact, the odds of a modern Tempter knowing any Sister who had become "completely Free" are likely slim to none.

But yes, it's possible. ;)

Yes, she is the ultimate abuser of geas retention.

How many thousands of Dijin-loads of targets is she holding onto?

[William]

1.) "Getting a Geas" should be clarified.

A Lilim of either type must be able to see the subject's eyes to read a Need. Live is best, but live media will do -- as has been pointed out, a video conference is sufficient. For Bright Lilim, recorded media are also usable, though the Needs read are the Needs the subject had at that time, and unless they still exist there will be no Geas-hook set.

Turning a Geas-hook into a Geas can be done without even seeing the recipient; the Lilim can send a letter, for example, requesting repayment.

A Geas can be voluntarily sworn to a Lilim by someone in communication with her, without the need for reading a Need or seeing the subject's eyes or setting a hook. (An ultimate example is the offer of a Geas to Lilith as part of invoking her.) There is no limitation specified on the medium required for the promise, so it amuses me to allow this even to the point of publicly broadcasting something like "I will owe a year-Geas to any Lilim who can soul-kill this prick."

2.) Using the Celestial Song of Affinity (very useful for Lilim; don't leave the Guildhall without it), a Lilim can determine the direction to someone who owes them a Geas or Geas-hook, and probably a rough idea of distance, say up to an order of magnitude in miles. They can tell whether a desired request is covered by a Geas, though on the high end this will blur a little as the line between "yes" and "no" shades into something like "enh, maybe, I'd probably give him a Will save to see if it works or vanishes."

[ladyarcana55]

I should give you some background so you understand why I am asking...

I am playing a Bright who is about to call a Sister who is still Demonic. I was thinking about giving her a different name than the one she knows me by, especially since I am using a vessel she had never seen. So, pretty much, what I am asking is...

1) I am willing to offer her a geas for, what should be, a simple task. Do we need to be face to face for this hook to stick?

2) When, (if), she has the geas, will she know who I really am? What information can she gleam from it?

Chances are, I will do it anyway, but I am curious.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

1) I am willing to offer her a geas for, what should be, a simple task. Do we need to be face to face for this hook to stick?

2) When, (if), she has the geas, will she know who I really am? What information can she gleam from it?

Chances are, I will do it anyway, but I am curious.

1) No. In this case, you could tell her what you need and she would get a Geas-hook if she did it, or, if you don't mind her knowing that you're a Lilim, you can self-geas to return the favor on demand.

2) In the former case above, she would be able to get a general idea of whether a given request would be too much or not, and could track you with the Song of Affinity. In the latter case, she would know that youare a Lilim, but nothing else; since you hold the Geas, she would have to ask you whetehr an action would be too much, since her resonance isn't involved. You can also be more specific about what sorts of requests are acceptable at the time of the Geas, since it's efectively an oath. She'll have to know the terms of it, and if she doesn't like them, you might not get her help, but you could say that, for instance, the return favor can't include information that would lead to your true identitiy, for instance. In neither case would she have any special way of knowing who you were other than "The person that owes me a Geas/x."