Annihilation and Magenta Moat

[UncleBob]

Just picked up the second expansion last night at a small store in Louisville, KY. Neat place. :D

Question - Annihilation - can you use it on the Magenta Moat to remove someone's moat from the game, thus allowing you to steal the card they had in it?

[thedag]

I don't have my cards in front of me but will say this. What it comes down to is does annihilation say the card must have just been played? If so then when they play the Magenta Moat then you need to play it straight away. Otherwise I see no reason why you could not do this.

[Clipper]

Annihilation can be played either immediately after another card is played or at any time on any card that is in play, so that's not an issue.

To me, the issue here is whether the Marvelous Magenta Moat is a card. The Moat itself calls itself a Thingie and it is a different size to other cards, so it is unclear whether it is a card or an accessory like a bookmark. Annihilation must be played on a card, so once we know if the MMM is a card or not, we have an answer.

[Mister Ed]

I'll be interested to see what the official answer is, but I would GUESS that you can't Annihilate it, simply because the entire point of the Magenta Moat is to be unbeatable protection (assuming you meet the requirements listed on the Moat). I'm thinking that design intent (if I'm reading that right) is going to be the determining factor, though your reasoning on it possibly not being considered a card could provide a convenient means to explain it.

[UncleBob]

It's an interesting theory that the 3M is a "thingee" and not a card - however, on the back of the Moat, it says "Do not try to shuffle this card into the deck." (hope that doesn't count as quoting cards...) and the text on the front mentions that other players cannot move the cards... That's twice it's called a card vs once where it's called a "thingee".

[Brf]

In both cases, the "cards" referred to on the Moat are actual physical cards, not "cards" as defined in the game. The fact that the Moat card is a different size than the other cards makes it clear it is not treated as "a card" within the game.

[Clipper]

I think there's sufficient arguments for both sides, but personally, I'm leaning to the side of calling it a card now. It does call itself a card twice and the product page says it includes 17 cards, one of which is the Moat. Plus, if you showed me the Moat and asked me, "Is this a card?" I'd find it hard to answer, "No."

Thus, I'd probably allow the Moat to be annihilated in my games until I hear a better argument.

[UncleBob]

If it were to be ruled that Annihilation couldn't be used on the Magenta Moat... could Trained Moths! from Cheat with Both Hands be used on it then?

[Clipper]

Originally Posted by UncleBob

If it were to be ruled that Annihilation couldn't be used on the Magenta Moat... could Trained Moths! from Cheat with Both Hands be used on it then?

Actually, no. As Trained Moths needs it to be a non-card. It seems certain that one or the other of Annihilation and Trained Moths can be used on it, but we don't know for sure which one just yet.

[UncleBob]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at - IF the Magenta Moat IS defined as a "card", then you should be able to use Annihilation on it - otherwise, IF it is defined as a "thingee", then you should be able to use the Trained Moths! on it... right?

It would all depend on what the official ruling (or table ruling if there's a lack of one)?