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Old 09-24-2018, 04:26 PM   #31
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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(we have blackberries inside the UGB, for crying out loud).
Worse yet, blackberries are a noxious weed in Oregon. They're the Northwest's version of kudzu. I'm not even joking.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:24 PM   #32
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Finally found it, "Planet Earth" with John Saxon - interesting sci-fi, post apocalypse steam powered cars battling on the desert.
That's interesting. I have planet Earth on DVD, and don't recall anything about steam powered cars or such. It's more of a reboot of Roddenberry's Genesis II TV pilot, or so I recall I may be confusing that with another film. Not a bad film as such, but you're right, it's kind of in the B or near B territory with low production values.

Yeah, and I seem to recall a radio news report about Oregon's gas pumping law. The last time I was there I stopped off at a huge truck stop where I was the only customer, and I went around from pump to pump trying to find a self service pump. None, so the teenager manning the place came out and did it for me. Interesting. I always thought that was crazy. And yeah, I never stopped off at the "Visitor Center" in Portland. Just call me a wild man.

I guess the other thing I remember about cruising through Oregon were the switchbacks, and the cottage farms off the main highway before the main stretch that led to Portland. That would make for an interesting setting or series of scenarios.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

Just to add here, and this has probably been mentioned before, but Car Wars' characters lack the "granularity" to allow extensive interpersonal combat (much less vehicular combat) with said characters. I think that from the get go (and the lack of a well defined RP rule set from the earliest versions) kept CW RPing mostly in the theoretical realms.

In real world physics a car crash kills instantly if you aren't restrained.
And a 50 cal round, much less several of them, hitting a person, usually means instant death. I think the rules were formulated with that notion in mind. So any RPing adventure, in my opinion, almost necessitates being vehicle centric.

If you're in the post-apoc ruins of a city with bandits, zombies, mutated critters and whatever else, then getting out of your car with the rest of your party is a risky proposition. Body armor gives you three extra points. Impact armor gives you six extra HPs, but those have to be from impacts.

To me this means that RPing sessions need to be really creative, or more equipment, armor, weapons and other "stuff" might need inventing for the 3 HP CW character to give him the edge he needs to survive.

I have other thoughts on this, but I think those are some notions I'd like to toss out there.
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:08 AM   #34
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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Just to add here, and this has probably been mentioned before, but Car Wars' characters lack the "granularity" to allow extensive interpersonal combat (much less vehicular combat) with said characters. I think that from the get go (and the lack of a well defined RP rule set from the earliest versions) kept CW RPing mostly in the theoretical realms.
Well, there was the "Ob-Racing" rules in one issue of ADQ; that had a bit more detail. And as noted earlier: I have some notes on the topic of RPG rules myself.

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In real world physics a car crash kills instantly if you aren't restrained.
And a 50 cal round, much less several of them, hitting a person, usually means instant death. I think the rules were formulated with that notion in mind. So any RPing adventure, in my opinion, almost necessitates being vehicle centric.
A vehicle MG stands a 50% chance of killing an unarmored ped in one shot; body armor reduces this to 16&2/3%, and IBA or Impact Armor makes it impossible (Impact Armor has 6DP, not 3). I suppose one could argue a ped's "3DP" doesn't include "minor hits" like creasing an arm or leg....

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To me this means that RPing sessions need to be really creative, or more equipment, armor, weapons and other "stuff" might need inventing for the 3 HP CW character to give him the edge he needs to survive.
My solution to this was: I divided the skills list into "combat" and "non-combat" skills (the point of division was "if it was likely to be used in an arena, it was Combat", so any of the vehicle-op skills, Gunner, Handgunner, Bow/Blade, Martial Arts, etc., went there; Computer Ops, Area Knowledge, and such went into Non-Combat); then allowed a beginning character three levels in Combat skills, and six levels in Non-Combat. The equipment list was fairly thorough by that time, so I left it alone. I forget what I allotted for starting funds, but it wasn't all that much -- maybe $1,000, enough for body armor, a weapon or two, and some non-combat kit (plus a Backpack to carry it in).
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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Well, there was the "Ob-Racing" rules in one issue of ADQ; that had a bit more detail. And as noted earlier: I have some notes on the topic of RPG rules myself.



A vehicle MG stands a 50% chance of killing an unarmored ped in one shot; body armor reduces this to 16&2/3%, and IBA or Impact Armor makes it impossible (Impact Armor has 6DP, not 3). I suppose one could argue a ped's "3DP" doesn't include "minor hits" like creasing an arm or leg....



My solution to this was: I divided the skills list into "combat" and "non-combat" skills (the point of division was "if it was likely to be used in an arena, it was Combat", so any of the vehicle-op skills, Gunner, Handgunner, Bow/Blade, Martial Arts, etc., went there; Computer Ops, Area Knowledge, and such went into Non-Combat); then allowed a beginning character three levels in Combat skills, and six levels in Non-Combat. The equipment list was fairly thorough by that time, so I left it alone. I forget what I allotted for starting funds, but it wasn't all that much -- maybe $1,000, enough for body armor, a weapon or two, and some non-combat kit (plus a Backpack to carry it in).
I've not been aware of anything called OB Racing rules until now.

Impact armor doesn't make getting killed from an MG impossible. Are you saying I'm wrong? I'm not understanding your point here. You have to roll a little higher, but you can still die.

I used to equip all my drivers and gunners with impact armor when it was published. Sometimes IBA over regular BA.

As for skills … I don't see too much of an issue with skills. Some skills are handy during combat. Others aren't. I've only done a few sessions of CW RPing so my comments here should be read in that vein. I'm not a novice, but like a lot of other players, to me, CW is a combat board game first, and an RP system many rungs down the ladder.

I don't think CW needs too much in terms of your standard scifi RPG skill set. This is after all a game about driving around in a car that's armed to the teeth, and since most people have some proficiency at driving, it would seem to lend itself to a more D&D-like level of play than anything else. D&D assumes you and your character has some level of knowledge of how a sword, bow, staff, club or whatever works. People with high knowledge bases like wizards, clerics and what not, tend to be the ones who get the special knowledges for whatever it is that's at issue.

A Car Wars RPing session, again to me, could (maybe should) mirror that. And I remember you putting down your essays on RPing a-la D&D and what not on the other threads, and I had planned on tableing those very concepts to SJGames in a draft, but since you put similar concepts up for free on this forum, I ash canned the idea. Concepts like encounter tables, wandering monsters, "dungeons" or ghost / deserted fortress towns with unique baddies and the like, was something I wanted to offer. I think it would have added a much needed or rather unexplored dimension to CW.

I'm not real passionate with CW (unless I'm, playing), but I do like discussing the game when I can, and have always thought that to make it a fully realized warsim-RPG from the 70s and 80s (like so many other games of that era), that the RPG aspect, though now properly codified in the latest rules, still hasn't been fully explored--but I guess I'm repeating myself.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:55 PM   #36
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I've not been aware of anything called OB Racing rules until now.
It was in one of the "large format" _Autoduel Quarterly_s -- I think it was 7/2, but I'm not sure.

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Impact armor doesn't make getting killed from an MG impossible. Are you saying I'm wrong? I'm not understanding your point here. You have to roll a little higher, but you can still die.
Impact Armor makes a *one-shot* MG kill impossible -- 9DP vs. max MG damage of 6 (7 if more-advanced ammo is available, but for this I'm sticking with "basic" ammo). Hit anyone with enough rounds of MG fire, and he dies; but one has to score those hits, and having more DP than the weapon firing at one can deliver damage can make the difference between reaching cover, or just being splashed across it. :)

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I used to equip all my drivers and gunners with impact armor when it was published. Sometimes IBA over regular BA.
I'm reasonably sure layering BA and IBA is Not Allowed -- I think it's in one of the "ADQ&A" sections of _ADQ_. I know Impact Armor's rules specifically state "no combining with anything except a Fireproof Suit".

(Questions like this are why I've been considering a "CW Wiki". :) )

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As for skills I don't see too much of an issue with skills. Some skills are handy during combat. Others aren't. I've only done a few sessions of CW RPing so my comments here should be read in that vein. I'm not a novice, but like a lot of other players, to me, CW is a combat board game first, and an RP system many rungs down the ladder.
True -- mainly I was working with the problem of "three skill levels are not nearly adequate for a fully-fleshed-out character".

I could tell the story of the "beginner scenario" I was in where my character was expected to steal back a car, but due to the limits on initial character skills he wound having *no* driving or gunnery skills.... :)

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I don't think CW needs too much in terms of your standard scifi RPG skill set. This is after all a game about driving around in a car that's armed to the teeth, and since most people have some proficiency at driving, it would seem to lend itself to a more D&D-like level of play than anything else. D&D assumes you and your character has some level of knowledge of how a sword, bow, staff, club or whatever works. People with high knowledge bases like wizards, clerics and what not, tend to be the ones who get the special knowledges for whatever it is that's at issue.
Well, there's more than one reason the Wizards and Clerics are in the back rows of the formation -- they are assets worth protecting. By that same token: If one is running a convoy, or (in my case) a Truck Stop, one's mechanics are *very* expensive (what's the training costs for a Mech +3?), and thus very protection-worthy, assets. Same for the MedTechs. The actual combat personnel -- well, they are known as "grunts" or "apes"; There Is A Reason For This. :)
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Old 09-25-2018, 08:08 PM   #37
Blue Ghost
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

I guess I was confusing regular MGs with VMGs or even lasers or autocanons.

For armor I meant choosing impact over standard or improved. I guess I wasn't clear.

But yeah, to add here, I remember the huge rack of D&D modules at the back of all the local game stores. And if you crack any one of them you'll see a novel's worth of material therein. But the play style, at the time at least, didn't require a lot of special skills.

That verse the one Convoy adventure published for Car Wars, and those "choose your own adventure" like pocket books that were published later on "Fuel's Gold" and the like. Again, repeating myself here and to get back on topic, just as a lay pre-teen and later high-school and college age player I was curious why there wasn't more RP stuff. The Road Atlases were interesting reads, but they weren't adventures, just supplements with background material. That, and they were geared for GURPS Autoduel, not strict CW play which I found really annoying, because everyone I knew who played Car Wars used Car Wars rules, and didn't use GURPS to game out CW sessions in any form...er, there were one or two people I knew who did, but they were the exception as far as I knew.

Anyway, my point here in my rambling on this thread is that at one time I would have loved to have seen more CW RP material instead of the GURPS stuff. GURPS has come a long way, and I admire it now for its various well researched references, but as a CW player I felt that if I wanted to RP in the CW verse that I was forced to buy GURPS Autoduel, and I simply didn't want to spend the time nor money into yet another system on top of all the other games (not to mention school work) that I had on my plate.

And maybe that was the core issue with CW RPing verse GURPS Autoduel; if you were an RPer at the time, and you knew your stuff, then you already had several rule sets in your head for various games in addition to learning chemistry, physics, advanced math like calculus or differential equations and such. Not that GURPS is hard to learn, but the CW rules, with all of the various weapons and addon gadgets, was already a game unto itself. Having to learn GURPS (Autoduel) to RP and adventure in the CW verse, to me, was a major turn off (no pun intended). I almost resented that at the time.

Anyway, I think I've said all I've had to on the topic. I hope my ramblings have been inciteful or helpful to some people.
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Old 09-26-2018, 02:24 PM   #38
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Anyway, my point here in my rambling on this thread is that at one time I would have loved to have seen more CW RP material instead of the GURPS stuff. GURPS has come a long way, and I admire it now for its various well researched references, but as a CW player I felt that if I wanted to RP in the CW verse that I was forced to buy GURPS Autoduel, and I simply didn't want to spend the time nor money into yet another system on top of all the other games (not to mention school work) that I had on my plate.
On this we agree -- _GURPS_ has it's charms, but it is Not _Car Wars_; that is: One cannot necessarily take a player of one, plonk him down at a table for the other, and have him playing effectively immediately. Being to jump directly from one to the other (and back) is useful.

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Anyway, I think I've said all I've had to on the topic. I hope my ramblings have been inciteful or helpful to some people.
One of the big reasons I've been following this thread is "trying to hear Other Points of View on the subject" -- esp. as there's not a heck of a lot of us left out here. Your airing of your views is appreciated.
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:21 PM   #39
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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On this we agree -- _GURPS_ has it's charms, but it is Not _Car Wars_; that is: One cannot necessarily take a player of one, plonk him down at a table for the other, and have him playing effectively immediately. Being to jump directly from one to the other (and back) is useful.



One of the big reasons I've been following this thread is "trying to hear Other Points of View on the subject" -- esp. as there's not a heck of a lot of us left out here. Your airing of your views is appreciated.
Well, one more thought here; GURPS Autoduel struck me more as a tool for RPers of all stripes who were not (or are not) primarily CW players, but have some familiarity with CW, and want to include CW flavor stuff in their RP sessions, than an actual RP system for CW players as seemed to be the intent.

I don't know what the thinking was way back when GURPS Autoduel was in development and hit the shelves, but it seemed like a marketing decision to rope in CW players to try out GURPS, and I don't mind saying this, but I was a really disaffected SJ Games customer way back then. I mean I really didn't like that decision, if what I'm putting down here is true.

When TFG released their Autoventures' line, to me, that seemed more in line with what I would have liked to have seen from SJGames or some authorized vendor in terms of RP supps / adventures for CW. And to this day I'm still .. agog as to why no pure CW RP supps were forthcoming, the odd ADQ article not withstanding.

I mean, it was a long time ago, but it's like as fun as I had with D&D I was not much into the whole fantasy RP thing, and I feel some of those irate feelings coming back when I think about the implicit promise of CW RP material, but instead we got things like Dueltrack or CW Tanks. I personally like Dueltrack, and loved seeing rules for gas engines, canam cars, even dragsters and all that racing gear. But it's like it took L'Outrance or Turbofire to vette the RP aspects which should have been in Dueltrack proper.

That's just me.

I think I''ve said everything. Maybe, maybe not. That's been some customer angst that I needed to vent. Again, GURPS is cool, but like you say, it's not CW.
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:50 PM   #40
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I will tongue-in-cheek again state the fact that in CW people have fewer DPs (3DP) than the weakest tire (4DP), tells you everything you need to know about whether CW is a roleplaying game.

Yes you can easily hack a rp game onto CW.

The Compendium 2.5e rules for continuing characters was not a complete game because it really didn't explain how to use all those 'roleplaying' skills or how to improve them.

We never really bothered with non-combat skills but did have an ongoing campaign, but it was just random encounter tables for encounters between cities and arena duels, along with some rules for delivering cargo and passengers. Biggest problem - it needed a GM so that was one fewer player.
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