[Rules question] Dragon breath

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

To simplify the process (I am smirking as I write this)... Versus Large Area Damage, effective DR is the average of torso DR and the lowest of:

* Force Field DR (natural or technological) + Nictitating Membrane + half of helm DR. If no helm, Nictitating Membrane or Force Field, this is zero no matter what other natural DR you have.

* Natural DR + Force Field armor DR + half of non-FF armor DR in the least-armored location.

Keeping in mind that this only applies to locations facing the attack without cover - your body provides cover for your eyes, for example, if you're facing away from certain attacks.

I think I've got it straight now.

I don't think you've got it straight.

First of all, armor chinks don't count as hit locations for purposes of large area damage. The Kromm-quote above said "use the helm's full DR for this calculation". (Edit: and even more to the point, "every piece of armor has "chinks" you can target for half DR, but the large-area injury rules always use the full DR of armor.")

Also, eyeslits are armor chinks for the eyes hit location. Your eye hit location armor is not "helm DR" in a great many cases. Simpler helmets don't provide any eye protection at all, and many high-tech helmets that do have face and eye protection have less there than on the skull.

Your second point is all you need, with the side note that DR for the eyes is nictitating membrane rather than normal DR.

[transmetahuman]

Ah. Okay, that does simplify things. Though I have to wonder why chinks in your armor shouldn't make you more vulnerable when you're immersed in a vat of acid (a book example of LAI - and in the Krommquote for that matter). I (now) get that chinks don't count; just seems strange. Would have been a good use for Sealed, which seems to have pretty rarified applicability in most games as things stand.

More afterthoughts: So what about natural DR, no eye slits? Does Leatherdemon, with thick hide everywhere except his eyes, get full or half (average zero with torso) DR versus LAI?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

Ah. Okay, that does simplify things. Though I have to wonder why chinks in your armor shouldn't make you more vulnerable when you're immersed in a vat of acid (a book example of LAI - and in the Krommquote for that matter). I (now) get that chinks don't count; just seems strange. Would have been a good use for Sealed, which seems to have pretty rarified applicability in most games as things stand.

I'd definitely ignore unsealed armor against acid immersion, at least after the first second or so. If the acid's inside the armor, it won't do you any good. Unsealed armor is also going to be useless against nerve gas, I suspect (though I don't know why Kromm's seemingly characterizing nerve gas as a large-area attack at all...)

Flamethrowers, I believe, specifically halve unsealed armor in addition to being large area attacks. Though I'd hesitate to equate that with targeting chinks, since sealed armor has chinks to exactly the same degree as unsealed.

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

More afterthoughts: So what about natural DR, no eye slits? Does Leatherdemon, with thick hide everywhere except his eyes, get full or half (average zero with torso) DR versus LAI?

Assuming your quote on the last page about natural DR not providing any eye protection (page ref? Failed to find that rule once.), seems like half DR would be correct.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Assuming your quote on the last page about natural DR not providing any eye protection (page ref? Failed to find that rule once.), seems like half DR would be correct.

Page 46, first paragraph in the DR advantage description.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

Eye slits count for Large Area Injury, so half of torso armor is usually correct for low-tech armor.

Although you might have missed the mark on the eye slits, your statement in general is still true. Low-Tech armor doesn't usually cover every hit location. If your face or neck is exposed, then you're back at averaging with DR 0 for half DR. Even if you do have every location covered, you'll probably have low DR somewhere, like DR 1 or 2 for the feet.

Also, if for some reason you can't retreat or throw yourself, you can't dodge.

Edit.: for a flame attack, however, I would enforce a minimum damage of 1 on any non AIR-tight protection, same goes for acid on a non WATER-tight suit.

[TJA]

When Kromms statement above is the official stance to that, then eyeslits are just chunks and targeting it with whatever and however (impaling, flamethrower, dragon breath, area attacks, ...) gives it DR/2 from the helmet in use.
If the helmet does not protect everything (like a cap), we can use (0 + DR)/2

Right?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by TJA

When Kromms statement above is the official stance to that, then eyeslits are just chunks and targeting it with whatever and however (impaling, flamethrower, dragon breath, area attacks, ...) gives it DR/2 from the helmet in use.

Not DR/2. (Torso DR + lowest piece of armor DR)/2 - you average the two locations. Usually the helmet is one of the higher DR locations because people likes their brains intact. For a low TL character, it'll usually either be the neck, the hands, or the feet.

Originally Posted by TJA

If the helmet does not protect everything (like a cap), we can use (0 + DR)/2

Right?

Yes, if anything is unarmored - the face, or the neck, both very commonly left unarmored, then it's the DR on that location (0) + torso DR, divided by two. Which simplifies to torso DR/2.

My massive tank of a minotaur barbarian has had an open face for the last two adventures - he's finally bought a face plate, but it's still his lowest armored location at a total DR of 8 (he's wearing plate over mail over thick skin, he really is a tank).

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Originally Posted by Gurps_Fan
> Examples: If I wear a full suit of plate armor with a greathelm, do I
> get only a half of the normal armor DR against area attacks just
> because the helm has the uncovered (DR 0) eyeslit?

Be careful with this logic . . . every piece of armor has "chinks" you
can target for half DR, but the large-area injury rules always use the
full DR of armor. An eyeslit is NOT DR 0 in 4e; it's a chink worth half
DR, because most weapons will catch an edge or have to force their way
between uprights in the visor grille. Hence, you *ignore* that and use
the helm's full DR for this calculation.

This is troublesome to me. The greathelm on B284 doesn't list "eyes" as a protected area, but from the above, we are to understand that when you're wearing a greathelm, your eyes get DR from the helmet.
Does not compute. Bzzzzzzzzk. [explodes]

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Dustin

This is troublesome to me. The greathelm on B284 doesn't list "eyes" as a protected area, but from the above, we are to understand that when you're wearing a greathelm, your eyes get DR from the helmet.
Does not compute. Bzzzzzzzzk. [explodes]

I believe Kromm means the basic hit locations, covered by 3-18 numbers, all others are subdivisions of those. "Eyes" here isn't a Hit Location in the sense Kromm used it, just as "Knee" isn't. "Sull", "Face", "Neck" are the head hit loactions. The rest is "Arms", "Hands", "Chest", "Legs" and "Feet".

All other minor loactions are bellow the granularity of Whole Body Injury.

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Dustin

This is troublesome to me. The greathelm on B284 doesn't list "eyes" as a protected area, but from the above, we are to understand that when you're wearing a greathelm, your eyes get DR from the helmet.
Does not compute. Bzzzzzzzzk. [explodes]

I also had a question like that, so I asked Kromm about it:

Originally Posted by Me

On the Armor Table, for example, TL8 Ballistic Helmet Visor (and many
other higher-tech headgears) lists "eyes" as one of its protecting
locations, while TL3 Greathelm (and any other lower-tech headgear)
lacks the "eyes" location.

At first, this seems to permit an interpretation that "gas masks cover
the eyes, but greathelms don't" -- however, such an interpretation is
impossible, and greathelms *do* provide DR for the eyes (and give half
DR even against attacks targeted at the eyeslit), if I understand your
replies correctly.

Then, what is the purpose of listing "eyes" for some headgears and not
listing for others on the Armor Table?

As a side question: Do Bronze Helmet, Leather Helm, Legionary Helmet
and Barrel Helm (which cover "skull, face") and Face Mask (which
covers "face") provide DR for eyes and eyeslit like greathelms?

Side question 2: Can I use the "targeting chinks" rules to attack a
visor-wearing foe's eye, halving his Ballistic Helmet Visor's
effective DR?

Originally Posted by Kromm

> On the Armor Table, for example, TL8 Ballistic Helmet Visor (and many
> other higher-tech headgears) lists "eyes" as one of its protecting
> locations, while TL3 Greathelm (and any other lower-tech headgear)
> lacks the "eyes" location.

Yes. This means that this armor provides full DR over the eyes, and you
cannot target the eyes to strike reduced DR. A DR 10 helmet with "eyes"
gives DR 10 on the head and DR 10 over the eyes; a DR 10 helmet without
that note gives DR 10 on the head but only DR 5 if an enemy targets the
eyes at -10 to take advantage of the "chinks in armor" rules.

> As a side question: Do Bronze Helmet, Leather Helm, Legionary Helmet
> and Barrel Helm (which cover "skull, face") and Face Mask (which
> covers "face") provide DR for eyes and eyeslit like greathelms?

Assume that any armor that covers the "face" has enough material around
the eyes to work like a greathelm does in terms of eye protection.

> Side question 2: Can I use the "targeting chinks" rules to attack a
> visor-wearing foe's eye, halving his Ballistic Helmet Visor's
> effective DR?

No. That's what "eyes" means, basically -- the DR specifically covers
the eyes and you can't bypass it with a shot to the eyes at -10. For an
unarmored target, "eyes" is a simple hit location at -9 to hit. For a
man in armor, though, "eyes" is a special name for a specific chink in
head armor.