[Powers] Area of Effect (60° or 120° Arc) or Wave Attacks

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by dfinlay

I feel like these limitations are too big. Losing arc on senses is comparatively major, since you don't know which way you want to be aiming it as you don't know where your targets are (figuring that out is part of the point of a sense). Losing arc on an attack is a lot lesser of a limitation. If we use "Works X% of the time" from accessibility, where X is the fraction of the full circle, this gives -15% for 240°, -25% for 120°, and -35% for 60°, which seems more reasonable to me.

On one hand, your reasoning is plausible. On the other, though, if we're dealing with one level of Area Effect, it's not actually very different from mine. Subtracting my proposed reduced values of Area Effect from the full value gives 50%-35%=15%, 50%-20%=30%, and 50%-12.5%=37.5%, which is quite close to your 15%, 25%, and 35% reductions.

The big difference seems to be that your approach is purely additive and doesn't give a greater reduction for a bigger area.

[dfinlay]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On one hand, your reasoning is plausible. On the other, though, if we're dealing with one level of Area Effect, it's not actually very different from mine. Subtracting my proposed reduced values of Area Effect from the full value gives 50%-35%=15%, 50%-20%=30%, and 50%-12.5%=37.5%, which is quite close to your 15%, 25%, and 35% reductions.

The big difference seems to be that your approach is purely additive and doesn't give a greater reduction for a bigger area.

I actually missed that you were applying those to AoE. I thought you were applying it to the advantage itself. That seems reasonable to me, then.

[Anaraxes]

I'd just reinterpret B413 ("A cone is one yard wide at its origin") to give the cone an appropriate width at range one.

(Strictly speaking, B413 isn't even incorrect if you take "origin" to be "hex containing the firer". Any one at 0 range can hit a target in the one hex that is the firer's hex. The width at one yard would then be width / range. So, a 180-degree "cone", max range ten yards, has a 28-yard perimeter edge and is thus three yards wide at range 1. A 120 degree cone has a 19-yard edge and is two yards wide at range 1.)

[Wavefunction]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I'd just reinterpret B413 ("A cone is one yard wide at its origin") to give the cone an appropriate width at range one.

(Strictly speaking, B413 isn't even incorrect if you take "origin" to be "hex containing the firer". Any one at 0 range can hit a target in the one hex that is the firer's hex. The width at one yard would then be width / range. So, a 180-degree "cone", max range ten yards, has a 28-yard perimeter edge and is thus three yards wide at range 1. A 120 degree cone has a 19-yard edge and is two yards wide at range 1.)

This would be my ruling anyway, the origin should surely be the person projecting the attack, therefore the origin is the hex the person is standing in, unless I've missed something and by default the source of an Innate Attack suddenly appears 1 yard away from the source.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

This would be my ruling anyway, the origin should surely be the person projecting the attack, therefore the origin is the hex the person is standing in, unless I've missed something and by default the source of an Innate Attack suddenly appears 1 yard away from the source.

It most certainly shouldn't fill the origin hex, or the wielder will take damage. You are fully subject to the effects of your own Innate Attack, including AOE and Cone effects. How it lands on a hex grid is an artifact of the hex sizes, but basically it can't start in the users hex or it's sort of a "setting yourself on fire" spell rather than a "setting everyone else on fire" spell.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On one hand, your reasoning is plausible. On the other, though, if we're dealing with one level of Area Effect, it's not actually very different from mine. Subtracting my proposed reduced values of Area Effect from the full value gives 50%-35%=15%, 50%-20%=30%, and 50%-12.5%=37.5%, which is quite close to your 15%, 25%, and 35% reductions.

The big difference seems to be that your approach is purely additive and doesn't give a greater reduction for a bigger area.

I'm not so sure that you should get a bigger reduction for a bigger area. Area effect is priced by what you already have, and each application of the +50% after the base area will increase the area covered by by factor of 4, regardless of how big of an arc you have.

And yet I'm not so sure that you shouldn't apply the discount per level of area effect either.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm not so sure that you should get a bigger reduction for a bigger area. Area effect is priced by what you already have, and each application of the +50% after the base area will increase the area covered by by factor of 4, regardless of how big of an arc you have.

And yet I'm not so sure that you shouldn't apply the discount per level of area effect either.

How is it handled with Cone Attacks?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Bruno

It most certainly shouldn't fill the origin hex... it can't start in the users hex

I agree with the first point -- but the second doesn't follow from the first. Logically, the attack would fill some fraction of the origin hex, which will only be relevant if someone is in Close Combat with the caster. (And I'm happy for them to get caught in a cone.)

If the precise attacking spot has enough reach, you might move the point to a hex edge (your fingertip) or even one hex over (a la the Staff spell). Or it might come from the center of your hex, as with Cyclops. I'm not sure any of these differences rate as more than features, so you might just leave it up to however the IA is defined to originate from the body.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That's pretty much a Cone for a +250% or +260% cost, with the addition that it starts at 3 hexes wide and not 1 hex wide. That's worth a small extra Enhancement, but not a huge one.

Personally, I wouldn't charge anything for a starting cone width greater than 1 hex. Since each hex side represents 60 degrees, I'd simply rule that a Cone is 1 hex side wide for every full 60 degrees of angle of the cone, determined by purchasing the appropriate width at the end of the cone... with a minimum of 1 hex wide at the origin.

So it would be 1 hex wide at the origin for a cone of less than 120 degrees, 2 hexes wide for 120 to 179 degrees, 3 hexes for 180 to 239 degrees, 4 hexes for 240 to 299 degrees, 5 hexes for 300 to 359 degrees, and 6 hexes (i.e., all the hexes around you) for 360 degrees. Of course, for the latter values, it's likely more effective to just get a full emanation or aura... but this isn't about optimization, but rather a method of costing.

You could tweak the values where the starting hex number actually change, so that instead of every full 60 degrees, you just round to the nearest 60 values and apply. So, for example, a 110 degree Cone would count as 120 degrees and have a 2 hex origin point.

[Wavefunction]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I agree with the first point -- but the second doesn't follow from the first. Logically, the attack would fill some fraction of the origin hex, which will only be relevant if someone is in Close Combat with the caster. (And I'm happy for them to get caught in a cone.)

If the precise attacking spot has enough reach, you might move the point to a hex edge (your fingertip) or even one hex over (a la the Staff spell). Or it might come from the center of your hex, as with Cyclops. I'm not sure any of these differences rate as more than features, so you might just leave it up to however the IA is defined to originate from the body.

Again agreed here, the origin is effectively the outer surface of the user, with exact position being immaterial.