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Old 09-08-2020, 06:34 AM   #1
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

Suppose as well as or instead of a wizard using up their strength when casting spells, they had to make a roll n/ST where n is the ST cost of the spell (plus the maintenance cost of any spells being maintained) or something related to that. The dice could be plain D6s or somehow modified. This would be in addition to any DX roll required.

Example: Egareva the Typical has ST 11, DX 11, IQ 11. She tries to cast Reverse Missiles on her meat shield, which requires a 2/ST roll and a 3/DX, she makes both. Next turn she tries to summon a Myrmidon (ST 2), she has to roll 2+1=3/ST and 3/DX, where the +1 is the maintenance cost of the spell.

There's lots of editing could be done around the edges of this to make it as easy/difficult as you like - I tend to think wizards are too powerful so I'm comfortable with this making them weaker. Making two dice rolls is maybe a little unfortunate but I think I can live with that, after all attacks do it. Maybe we don't want spells lasting forever, we could figure something out for that. Some spells have very large ST costs and something would have to be done about those. We could have talents that e.g. replace 1+0 dice with 1-1 dice, that would be more valuable to some wizards than others.

As I see it this has some significant advantages:
  • It means wizards can't entirely dump ST. Powerful wizards, who want to cast powerful spells, need more ST than beginners.
  • Eliminating fatigue means the game no longer needs to be interrupted for wizard rest. The relative power of fighter and wizard no longer depends on the ease of rest.

Opinions solicited, of the broad concept. We'd need to
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Old 09-08-2020, 07:13 AM   #2
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

You would have to alter the cost of a lot of spells to avoid the very thing you are trying to fix.

If you have a wiz with a 14 ST / 14 DX, now they hardly miss and never deplete. Even a starting 12/12 is pretty scary.

I do appreciate the concept though. With work, that could be a cool alternative.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:02 AM   #3
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

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Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty View Post
You would have to alter the cost of a lot of spells to avoid the very thing you are trying to fix. If you have a wiz with a 14 ST / 14 DX, now they hardly miss and never deplete. Even a starting 12/12 is pretty scary. I do appreciate the concept though. With work, that could be a cool alternative.
An ST 12 DX 12 starting wizard presumably has IQ 8 and would be limited to spells like Blur and Magic Fist. Such a character could cast with 55% reliability, in a typical battle they probably would get off roughly as many spells as a DX 12 wizard running an ST 12 down, maybe a little less.

The cost of a most of the lower IQ spells is only 2 so an ST of 10 would suffice to make you pretty reliable at those. When you get up to 4-Hex Illusion or Summon Bear it becomes a bit more difficult. ST 9 DX 11 IQ 11 would let you cast Illusion with 52% reliability. ST 14 DX 14 IQ 14 could cast 4-Hex Illusion or 3-die lightning bolts with 82% reliability but we are talking about a 42-point character.

A wizard could spin up spells before busting a door down, just in case they are needed. That's a pretty substantial advantage.

Maybe wizards get tired gradually by spellcasting, to put some kind of limit on it. Say, lose a fatigue every time they roll an autofail, or even every time they roll a 1 on any die of a ST roll.

I suppose this could be a different character class.
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Old 09-08-2020, 07:35 PM   #4
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

That is true, totally did not think about IQ (doh!)
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Old 09-08-2020, 09:35 PM   #5
Shostak
 
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

What if instead of a ST check, the standard DX roll to cast a spell suffered a penalty equal to the amount (if any) the caster's ST is lower than the Spell's IQ level? That keeps all three stats important, and casting to a single roll.
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Old 09-09-2020, 03:32 AM   #6
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
What if instead of a ST check, the standard DX roll to cast a spell suffered a penalty equal to the amount (if any) the caster's ST is lower than the Spell's IQ level?
If we're asking, "How much power does it take to make this spell?" I'd rather use the ST cost than the IQ level.
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Old 09-11-2020, 07:30 PM   #7
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

Hi David,
What an intriguing idea. I like that you are trying to make ST relevant for wizards and without the fatigue (which quickly spends a wizard leaving them as delicate baggage).

A problem with it being a die per ST cost, is quickly costly spells become uncastable. All spells costing 5+ ST (and 4 ST plus 1 ST maintenance, etc) become out of reach. This does not break your plan, but does require more work to handle it.

Here is an idea. It's is okay if you don't like it:

I have often felt that casting spells in TFT to trivial. And for a game based on simplicity, that is fine. But what if harder to cast spells (high ST cost) took longer to cast than just one turn? For every turn spent focusing (much like the aiming rules) you get to reduce the ST saving roll by 1 die. So a wizard that wants to summon a dragon (ST 5 + 2 for maintenance) is looking at a 7/ST save in addition to 3/DX. Even a high ST wizard is going to miss this. But if he focused for 4 turns before trying to cast on the fifth turn, then it becomes 3/ST and 3/DX. His fighters will need to protect him for 5 turns while he prepares and finally casts. Also, MAYBE, there should be a minimum number of dice. Say 2/ST is the lowest it can go. Maybe.

In addition, I still think there is some value to fatigue. Just not as much as the game has. And it should be a penalty for failed castings, instead of for success. This prevents wizards from just trying long shots constantly. So, if you fail your ST or DX roll, then 1 ST fatigue. If you succeed, then no cost.


Like I said, I really like your idea. Let us know what you finally settle on.
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:59 AM   #8
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

I just give Wizards a reservoir of Magic Power or Mana equal to their starting STR score. They can use this without it affecting their STR in any way. Once they run out of this Magic Power they can dip into their actual STR reserves if they choose to but the STR loss is as for wounds.
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:27 AM   #9
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I just give Wizards a reservoir of Magic Power or Mana equal to their starting STR score. They can use this without it affecting their STR in any way. Once they run out of this Magic Power they can dip into their actual STR reserves if they choose to but the STR loss is as for wounds.
Hi Chris,
Long before TFT made its come back that is nearly exactly what we used to do. We played that each Wizard had a reservoir of ST equal to his ST in his staff (twice that if it was a Staff of Power). Same net result. We still did fatigue after the staff ST was used up. Oh and missile spells could not draw on staff ST.
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:32 AM   #10
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
A problem with it being a die per ST cost, is quickly costly spells become uncastable.
Certainly true.

Quote:
what if harder to cast spells (high ST cost) took longer to cast than just one turn?
That would work well for, say, Create Gate. But a spell like Megahex Sleep is generally cast on a target of opportunity: if you take four turns to cast that then the target concentration is almost certainly gone. In fact the battle might be over.

I was thinking of having some method of reducing the cost of spells, maybe talents. So Megahex Sleep (raw fatigue cost 8) might be de facto uncastable at 8x(1+0). But with appropriate talents or use of a staff or some kind of gadget maybe you can get that cost down to 8x(1-2) and it becomes practical. The talent would be very expensive in some way or other, it wouldn't be hugely useful to a starting character casting 2- and 3-point spells but it would be a big deal to a great mage so it gets picked up somewhere in the character's career.
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