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Old 11-03-2014, 06:05 PM   #511
Dragondog
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You mentioned a few techniques he used in those scenes, could one estimate his skill level to competently and repeatedly do what he did?
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Old 11-03-2014, 07:16 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Fourthed. I was sitting in the theater thinking "this is so cool, Doug will love it."
"Go to a movie" and "have a 4-month-old and a 5-year-old" have been shown to be largely incompatible, alas. Good news is that Hans has stepped up. I did see a few grapple-oid moves in the one clip, but I suspect this is 5-10 parts TS to each part TG.
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Old 11-03-2014, 07:20 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
You mentioned a few techniques he used in those scenes, could one estimate his skill level to competently and repeatedly do what he did?
In the first clip (in the bar), most of the shots he takes are at VERY close range.

He makes 3 definitive head shots (0:04, 0:05, 0:16), so let's use those to get an idea.

If you assume the head shots are aimed at the Skull (-7), here's what I get for those tougher shots:

Range: 0 (the head shots look all to be within about a yard, probably no more than 2)

AoA: +1 (required for sighted shooting)

Braced: +1 (he has both hands on his weapon for all 3 of the head shots)

Hit Loc (Skull): -7 (assuming he hasn't bought up TA: Pistols/Skull)

Total Modifier: -5

So a Skill of Guns (Pistols): 19 puts him able to execute those tough skill shots about 90% of the time.

If you assume he maxed out the TA: Pistol/Skull technique, then he only needs a skill of 15 to make those shots.

I'm not very good at the melee combat stuff, so I'll leave those estimations to others.

It also gets easier if he is doing Face shots or has TA: Pistol/Face.

Also, it doesn't look like he takes more than a couple of steps between shots, so no Move&Attack...probably just AoAs with half-moves.
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Old 11-03-2014, 07:33 PM   #514
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You mentioned a few techniques he used in those scenes, could one estimate his skill level to competently and repeatedly do what he did?
I'm going to leave the 2nd clip alone, as most of those shots do not look particularly challenging, and they generally hit the Torso, or maybe the Vitals.

The toughest one is is at 0:38 when he does the unsighted, behind the back shot at a target on the other side of an opaque wall.

That sounds to me like Shooting Blind (Basic Set, p389), with a -10 and a skill cap of 9. He actually hits twice, which I'm pretty sure is more luck than skill.
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Old 11-04-2014, 02:47 AM   #515
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You mentioned a few techniques he used in those scenes, could one estimate his skill level to competently and repeatedly do what he did?
He might have Skill-18 or so, but he probably has more like Skill-15 and maxed-out techniques. Many of the moves are textbook techniques, and learned as such. Some of the shots seem to miss, his reloads are remarkably slow (for an action character! It's decent in real-life), I already mentioned some of the problems with the shot counts and so on.
The thing that makes this guy so outstanding is his overall Situational Awareness (Tactical Shooting, p. 11). He always knows where his next target is, frequently he's engaging one target while grappling with another. This is what makes him so efficient (in the two scenes I have seen).
He has Combat Reflexes and high Per or Tactics -- but frankly, there's a cinematic element to this that probably can't be represented with Tactical Shooting.

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Old 11-04-2014, 03:08 AM   #516
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Thanks all for that overview of his skill.
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:55 AM   #517
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He might have Skill-18 or so, but he probably has more like Skill-15 and maxed-out techniques.
Agreed. And if you watch the 2nd clip, it's much the same thing. Maybe if I can find a few more clips or actually get to see the movie (same basic issue as Doug), I might be able to get more insight into his skill levels.


Quote:
Many of the moves are textbook techniques, and learned as such. Some of the shots seem to miss, his reloads are remarkably slow (for an action character! It's decent in real-life), I already mentioned some of the problems with the shot counts and so on.
Agreed. And most of the shots are pretty easy. Even the skull shots at less than 2 yards are not hard with a decent skill and a bought up technique.

I clocked his reload at 3 seconds, which is spot on for GURPS if you don't have Quick Draw (Ammo). He also doesn't seem particularly concerned with reloading quickly. And my guess with the reload in the bar clip is that it's a misfire. He strikes the mook with the muzzle, which might have put the slide out of battery. Of course, an immediate action drill here would have saved time over a reload, but that's minutiae.

Quote:
The thing that makes this guy so outstanding is his overall Situational Awareness (Tactical Shooting, p. 11). He always knows where his next target is, frequently he's engaging one target while grappling with another. This is what makes him so efficient (in the two scenes I have seen).
He has Combat Reflexes and high Per or Tactics -- but frankly, there's a cinematic element to this that probably can't be represented with Tactical Shooting.
Agreed.

I do have a question for you, Hans. Earlier you mentioned the CQB technique. While he likely has it, I didn't see any evidence in either of the clips that he moved more than 3 yards between shots. That small amount of movement could be covered with AoAs, right?

To tell you the truth, I haven't come across any situations in any of the GURPS modern games that I've played/GMed where having that extra 2 - 3 yards of movement from a Move & Attack was crucial, or even really necessary.

I love the CQB technique, but I just haven't seen it get any real use.

Last edited by TheOneRonin; 11-04-2014 at 06:14 AM. Reason: Cleaning up quotes
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:13 AM   #518
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Hey Hans, any chance Wick is using an HK45? It's aesthetically similar to the P30, but the mag only holds 8 - 10 rounds. That would mean his reload timings make more sense.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:30 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
And my guess with the reload in the bar clip is that it's a misfire. He strikes the mook with the muzzle, which might have put the slide out of battery. Of course, an immediate action drill here would have saved time over a reload, but that's minutiae.
Yes. See my edit of #509.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I do have a question for you, Hans. Earlier you mentioned the CQB technique. While he likely has it, I didn't see any evidence in either of the clips that he moved more than 3 yards between shots. That small amount of movement could be covered with AoAs, right?

To tell you the truth, I haven't come across any situations in any of the GURPS modern games that I've played/GMed where having that extra 2 - 3 yards of movement from a Move & Attack was crucial, or even really necessary.

I love the CQB technique, but I just haven't seen it get any real use.
You need the Close-Quarter Battle technique whenever you're taking a Move and Attack maneuver. Attack only allows a Step (p. B365), and Step allows you only 1/10 Move (p. B368), which for most people ends up being 1 yard. John Wick moves more than two steps in the second clip at 0:30. That's Move and Attack, and that's where Close-Quarter Battle helps.

Cheers

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Old 11-04-2014, 06:35 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Hey Hans, any chance Wick is using an HK45? It's aesthetically similar to the P30, but the mag only holds 8 - 10 rounds. That would mean his reload timings make more sense.
It would (somewhat) account for the shot count (the HK45 takes 10+1, not eight or nine), but I don't think so. As I said, I own a P30L, and his gun looks exactly like it. The slide and barrel of the HK45 is slightly shorter; a crisp screen-cap would allow us to count the ribs of the underbarrel accessory rail (or, of course, actually let us read what it says on the slide), which would make the ID watertight (the HK45 has one rib less than the P30L).
I'm thinking they probably choreographed the fight scenes with a different weapon (which would also account for the shooter idiosyncrasies pointed out by me), and then changed the prop without updating the choreographies.

Cheers

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Last edited by HANS; 11-04-2014 at 07:01 AM.
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