Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, now I'm completely confused. I don't understand how this dialogue can influence Jack, aside from ******* him off.

Uh, with the Bully Disadvantage, what other purpose should there be?

The character compulsively pisses people off.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Uh, with the Bully Disadvantage, what other purpose should there be?

The character compulsively pisses people off.

Seems like the only failed attempt among your examples, then. Heh.

[Kalzazz]

Hmm. Only one I recall offhand from a game was a fantasy game, when some goons stepped out of an alley in front of my character

"Hello, can I help you? You arent trying to make horrible foolish potentially irrevocable decisions now are you?"

This alas didnt intimidate them at all

[SandmanBr]

Reputation may be a key factor on an intimidation roll...
For example:
Bruce Banner: “You don’t want to see me angry…”
If you know that Bruce Banner angry = Hulk this should be a successful intimidation roll, if don’t you will never be scared of a skinny little guy with no weapons…
If a place is famous for been dangerous and high mortality rate any thief will be more prone to get a good intimidation roll…

[SolemnGolem]

An obstructive bureaucrat trying to get the players to tell him what, exactly, they've been up to in their spare time when they're not actively at their desk jobs.

A police or military commander speaking to the entrenched terrorists through a bullhorn in the last parley before sending in the cavalry.

A lawyer cross-examining a hostile witness.

A professor dealing with a mouthy student in the lecture hall.

Any military commander facing potential insubordination.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Those are not successes on Intimidation vs an NPC - those are failures. Screwing up by scarring him into defensive action is still screwing up, and you still get the Very Bad reaction instead of the Good one.

I'm making a point about how the way intimidation works as usually portrayed in fiction in usually unrealistic, not how a game should be run.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Could you expand on that comment?

Well, in the movies, the intimidation attempt is set up in such a way (generally) to look convincing if you don't think about it much, or by the 'rules' of genre fiction. For ex, Dirty Harry, in real life, would not be a cop for long. Even back in the 70s, he'd have soon ended up facing charges unless the entire department was corrupt (and not in the sense that the department is corrupt in the usual Dirty Harry movie).

It might work once or a few times...then he's gone, no longer a cop at best, and the people who used to be afraid of him aren't anymore. (Except that by the 'genre rules' of most Eastwood films, he's still scary just because.)

Jack Bauer? Terrifying in a fictional world set up to make him unrealistically scary against unrealistic enemies and backed up by unbelievable and unrealistic support. Jack Bauer in an even semi-realistic setting? Not scary, not even terribly impressive.

One problem with intimidation in fiction is that it's often used in ways that make little or no sense, looked at realistically. (Assuming one cares, if one is just trying to game genre fiction, you don't need to be any more realistic than that genre unless you want to do so.)

How many times does the Crime Boss send the thugs around to beat the **** out of the heroic P.I.? Why, exactly, does he bother? If for some reason he can't just arrange an accident for the P.I., and he knows the P.I. doesn't quit trying just because he's been beaten senseless repeatedly, (and yet somehow mysteriously takes no lasting harm each time), why waste the time?

If he can arrange an accident for the guy who knows too much, why warn him at all? I always remember the old vampire movie Fright Night, where if IIRC the vampire offers the protagonist a chance to shut up and threatens him if he doesn't. Why not just disappear the brat?

The real reason, of course, is that realistic behavior by the villains and heroes makes 75% of genre fiction non-functional. A real vampire with the powers and problems of the ones in the movies wouldn't threaten, the guy that knows too much just has an accident or disappears, with no warning, before he has a chance to tell someone or take precautions. Doesn't make for a very entertaining movie.

But it can easily be so overdone that it drains away the WSOD, too, in the other direction. (IMHO, two TV shows that suffered hugely from this are 24 and La Femme Nikita, both created IIRC by the same person).

[Johnny1A.2]

In each of the following cases, there are a lot of ways to do it, and it depends on who the other person is and the details.

Originally Posted by SolemnGolem

An obstructive bureaucrat trying to get the players to tell him what, exactly, they've been up to in their spare time when they're not actively at their desk jobs.

"Look, Kevin, it's like this. I've been covering for you. You know it. That's why you still have a job. I've done it because you're good at your job, and because you've always played straight with me as far as I know.

"But here's the thing: my bosses are on me. Hard. It's going to be out of my hands soon if I don't give them something, but I can't tell them anything that'll help if you don't help me out, too. I need to know what's going on or I'm not going to be able to help you.

"I'm serious, Kevin. At best, you're looking at dismissal, and if somebody doesn't come up with some explanation for FILL IN THE BLANK, then the boys upstairs are going to be looking to cover their asses, and the best way they can do that is to prosecute someone.

"Seriously, Kevin, I won't be able to do a thing to stop it. I'll tell you straight, I won't even try, I'm not going to put my career and my freedom at risk for you if you don't help me out a little in return. So it's me, now...or the DA in a month or so. What's it gonna be?"

Note that this is intimidation, couched in friendly language. Notice the mention of the DA, is it true? Or a bluff? Only the boss knows for sure.

A police or military commander speaking to the entrenched terrorists through a bullhorn in the last parley before sending in the cavalry.

"Listen up! This is the last warning, and you've got fifteen minutes to surrender, once I put down this horn! Not sixteen, not fifteen minutes and thirty seconds, not fifteen minutes and five seconds.

"If you surrender now, you're going to be going to prison for a very, very long time, if you don't, you're going to die. There isn't any third choice. We won't be taking any prisoners.

"By the way, you might notice that the news helicopter is gone. Check your TV, you'll get nothing but static. If you check, you'll find your Web connection is dead, too.

Nobody's going to get to watch your last stand, there'll be no film, no audio, no Internet manifesto's going out. This'll be a brief mention on page ten, at best, just a few more dead bodies in a world full of 'em. Your folks won't get anything for it, of course, since nobody's gonna know what happened to you, especially once we put out the word that you're alive and cooperating with us. We'll be doing that if you're dead, just so you know. Bet your families will really get a charge from that!

"Of course, you could surrender. Prison isn't the worst thing in the world, and at least you'll still be breathing, just like your leader back at his headquarters, you know, the one who sent you here to face us while he stayed hidden? Is it worth dying when nobody's ever going to know anything about it anyway?

"Anyway, clock's ticking. Fourteen minutes and fifty-five seconds, mark."

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

One problem with intimidation in fiction is that it's often used in ways that make little or no sense, looked at realistically. (Assuming one cares, if one is just trying to game genre fiction, you don't need to be any more realistic than that genre unless you want to do so.)

Very true. There's a funny bit in a Travis McGee book where a couple of gangsters pay the hero a visit. One of the gangsters starts talking like a movie thug, making McGee complain that the gangsters had been acting like serious professional criminals up until then. The other gangster explains that a lot of civilians only know criminals from the movies and are very impressed and scared when someone acts like a movie thug in real life.

Anyway, I'd say intimidation attempts would be tailored to the particular intimidator and his abilities.

1. The threat should be credible in the sense that the NPC is both willing and able to carry out the threat - e.g., cops will get in trouble for threatening random violence so that's not very credible.

2. The style should reflect the NPC's abilities and style.

Most of the examples have been covered but I have some thoughts.

* A street tough (which is not necessarily a big brute - could also be a skinny sneak with a high skill) 'warning' some yuppie(s)/noble(s) to stay out of his turf.

Depends on abilities - a big brute might go with a display of force and lots of shouting. A sneaky guy might sneak up on the PC first to demonstrate ability to ambush. Or the thug could just innocently discuss the PC's loved ones and where and when they can be found (the Untouchables has a good example of this.)


* A high beaureaucrat telling some overconfident 'adventurers'/PIs/jocks to not mess with him.

A high level bureaucrat might pull out a stack of rules and regulations thicker than a phone book, comment that only a saint could successfully avoid breaking any of the rules and then politely ask the PC if he's a saint.

* One noble or diplomat making a subtle threat at another, in an attempt to get some political favor.

The NPC might regretfully note that certain actions may be necessary for domestic political reasons that would be regrettable for the PC. Unsophisticated PCs may need an IQ roll to get the hint.

"Now I understand why you're angry with Lord Valdren. But his family is powerful and popular back home. Our Emperor simply can't allow a foreigner to harass him and would be obliged to contact your king and ask for assistance, or possibly be compelled to take more drastic actions. I speak purely in hypotheticals of course. You're far too sensible a man to start a course of action that would lead to unfortunate consequences for all of us."

* A shaman talking down a skeptical fellow warrior - or a modern skeptic.

The warrior has been covered - the skeptic might be persuaded by a demonstration of abilities. Even if the shaman doesn't know real magic, he might know real poisons.

* A modern low-key mage/voodoo user/etc. scaring a modern skeptic - think Skeleton Key, but without the bells and whistles like mood music and the film director saying 'be scared now'.

Reverse psychology - convince the skeptic you have perfectly mundane ways to harm him. The intimidation should be at a penalty if the PC doesn't believe in the NPC's powers.

* Whatever 'mental bullying' is under the Bully disadvantage.

Social intimidation - the NPC doesn't threaten violence, he threatens the target socially. Alternately, the NPC insults the target's ability - imagine one nerd mocking another nerd's knowledge base.

* Whatever falls under Specious Intimidation.

A credible bluff - the NPC may not be able to back it up but it's still a plausible threat ("Go Ahead - Make my day.")

[Stripe]

This thread sure went fast.

Originally Posted by B202

This is the skill of hostile persuasion. The essence of Intimidation is to convince the subject that you are able and willing, perhaps even eager, to do something awful to him.

Bold added.

I didn't read the thread, but I just want to say that I use Intimidation in situations where the person is at least somewhat unlikely to be intimidated; when the intimidater is trying to convince someone he is going to harm them. If the person really is willing and able to do harm, obviously so, no roll is needed for my games since basically all forms of life have an innate desire for self preservation.

For instance, a scrawny 13 year old trying to Intimidate his way out of a mugging from a knife-wielding street tough in a back alley would need to roll. The 13 year old might be "willing" or even "eager" to do the mugger harm, but he's not reasonably "able" to do so. He's going to have to use the skill of Intimidation to convince him of the ladder.

If you have a massive barbarian berserker PC holding a greataxe calmly and with no show of force telling a tiny NPC scribe he'd better clear out of his tribe's land or else he's going to hack him in twain lengthwise, there's really no need for a roll in my games. What's the scribe going to say? No? Is this scribe suicidal? Does he want to die? Is the NPC scribe an emotionless robot? Even if there was some super important reason for the scribe to be there, is it more important to him than having a greataxe cleave through his skull? The barbarian is obviously "able and willing, perhaps even eager, to do something awful to him." No skill is required to "convince" him of that.

That's my take on RAW anyway.