Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate - Page 2

larsdangly · 12-18-2019, 08:35 PM

It is a significant flaw of the magic item section of Advanced Wizard and the new ITL that the stated rules about self-powered items seem not to have been enforced when the tables and descriptions were put together. And a large fraction of items don't state clearly one way or the other whether they are self powered. Very confusing.

Skarg · 12-18-2019, 11:35 PM

Nils, I agree that the new XP curve suggests fewer IQ 18 and 20 wizards to be able to enchant things. And since enchantments involve a series of DX rolls, and the costs seem to assume wizards mostly make their rolls, using non-DX 15+ enchanters will also drive up the prices to create magic items.

The tables don't leave much room for profit margins either, which is pretty economically unsound.

Although, there are some rules in ITL for selling magic items, which if GMs bother to read them, and assume the people selling the items tend to go through merchants with Business Sense and other reaction roll modifying talents, would tend to increase the sales prices.

As I have mentioned on other threads, what we ended up tending to assume in our old games, even with the old experience costs and the assumption there were some DX 15 IQ 18-20 wizards in cities, that very rarely would they be available for hire to enchant things, and when they were, they'd be in demand from the nobility, militaries, guild masters and other very wealthy and powerful people, and so had little or no reason to need to sell to scruffy adventurers for anything like the listed prices.

I think it's most interesting to think about how many wizards of what power exist in a campaign world, where they are and what they do with their time.

And considering that, if you were a DX 15+, IQ 18+ wizard . . . you'd be rather powerful and smart compared to most people. Even moreso now that the attribute curve is rather lower than it originally was. Being so capable, powerful and smart, how much of your time do you suppose you would be choosing to devote to spending to enchant magic items for other people? Any at all? If you did, would you be willing to only be paid Wizard Guild job rate for your work? How much of a fraction of the item's worth do you suppose you'd need to be paid to make it worth your while? Would you be more inclined to sell to some adventurers with no social status, compared to the nobility, or a guild master, or someone else powerful willing to throw in some favors involving their power and authority as part of the bargain?

We didn't think that'd happen very often.

And even so, due to magic item propagation due to loot and adventures, and the growing experience that games where the PCs and their enemies have magic items tend to end up being largely about how many items people have rather than much about what their characters are like, and people without magic items started being impotent victims by comparison, we also added our Magic Item Breakdown house rules. But adding a ST cost for all magic items would have a similar balance effect.

larsdangly · 12-19-2019, 09:32 AM

I think the important details about the magic item creation rules are: the high IQ needed to even be in charge of such a thing; the large number of employees you need to be able to recruit, command and pay; and the long commitment of time to make anything major. Taken together, I find it absurd that anyone would then turn around and sell the product for the listed prices. Ask yourself what would be involved to create a PC who was capable of making, say, a self powered item with 2-3 useful spells on it, who then invested all the time and resources to do so. Would they then sell the thing for a few measly tens of thousands of silvers?

hcobb · 12-19-2019, 10:34 AM

Factors in magical item costs.

Example: Stone Flesh ring

First start with a physical appearance to make a salable product. Say a silver ring of $200

Next recruit an enchanter. This needs to be done every four years (because of job hazards and recruitment by others). Lesser Magic Item Creation is an IQ 18 spell so just charge the salary ($250/week).

Also recruit six apprentices, with $300/week salary.

You'll need a wizard's tower or other suitable infrastructure and security for that so add $50/week for the room rental on top of the $150/week to rent the lab and $50/week for supplies. (This is very cheap for the level of guards you'd want to hire, but assume a big complex with a lot of labs.)

So the total operating costs are at least $800/week

DX 12 is about the best you can hope for from an enchanter so each ring takes an average of around seven weeks at a total cost of $5,600 and the selling price needs to be around double the production costs to deal with retail markup so the final selling price is $10k plus or minus haggling.

larsdangly · 12-19-2019, 12:47 PM

Nice example! So according to the table, this activity gets done for a loss, or possibly at-cost if you did it for a living in your own tower and somehow didn't have to worry about infrastructure costs, etc. The notion that a 38-40 point character with a team of hired wizard underlings would think this is a good use of time is just completely absurd. No player character would do it for less than 50 grand.

hcobb · 12-19-2019, 02:07 PM

The listed enchantment costs do not include cost of living for apprentices, for one thing.

I.e. ye old magic shop has empty shelves because all the would be enchanters starved to death in grad school.

It is quite reasonable to charge double listed price for LMIC and triple for GMIC. (W/AE is easy enough so that "common" magic arms and armor are at listed prices, with uncommon configurations being very rare.)

Potions are mass produced in facilities located where the ingredients are much cheaper than listed. Go ahead and apply the potion creation rules for any players who long to lose money on every batch.

Skarg · 12-19-2019, 02:36 PM

100% markup seems pretty tame to me, especially considering the power / force / capabilities of many magic items, and who at the higher levels of society would be interested in them. These aren't just luxury items, and I don't think there's usually going to be surplus supply except for terribly impractical items (or which there aren't many and who would intentionally make them?) or items which almost no one can afford.

See for example this article about estimates of current markups on modern goods: https://www.wisebread.com/cheat-shee...n-common-items

And that's only talking about the margin for retailers... wholesalers also have costs and profit margins, and the companies that create things are below them and have their expenses and profits too.

If industrial bluejeans, shoes and furniture get marked up 350%, items enchanted by IQ 18 enchanters with teams of wizards and apprentices... I really think it's a seller's market and depends on who can afford them and how desperate the seller is for cash. As well as various power considerations including possibly taking things by force.

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-19-2019, 04:24 PM

You can't really compare with commonly mass-produced items today. And big expensive things, usually have a lower mark up and fewer levels between the producer and the end customer. But still.

I would go with the listed prices as an absolute minimum. And with at least a x2 for all magic items. And a lot more for a LMI. GMI with multiple enchantments on them is government investments.

In general, I prefer to keep the system and adjust it, so it doesn't play too big of a part in the world. If you make airships cheaper than sailing ships, your world will change, but if you make them available but really expensive or rare for other reasons, they will add spice to your game world, but they won't completely change harbors, trade, travel, warfare, and the fishing industry.

So, make it available to the PC if the story needs it or the PC work for it, but limit it so the world is still recognizable. A world needs a lot of stereotypes to work, with some added well thought out changes, adding too many strange things will just make it inaccessible and confusing.

Axly Suregrip · 12-19-2019, 09:11 PM

Nils,
Great insight. I used to have all magic items at x3 list price, if available. I now see that was too simplistic. From your well reasoned and clear explanations this seems to be a better approach:

Modifiers to list price for unusual and magical equipment:

Fine Weapons x1
Fine Plate x1

Wizard's Chest x1
Books/Tomes about Spells x1

Chemical Potions & Gas Bombs x1 (not magical)
Alchemical Potions & Gas Bombs x2
Magical Scrolls x2

Enchanted Weapons & Armor x2

Less Magic Items x10

Greater Magic Items NA. Not on the common market. If you can persuade a great enchanter to create a GMI it will be x50 at a minimum and must also be worthy to the enchanter for other reasons (for political/social gain, for a deeply held cause, or for a personal quest that you will see through. And so on). And then you will need to come back when it is completed. If ever so. Word will get out that such a task is under way, and opposing forces may see the effort twarted or even the enchanter slain. It may be to your best interest to include or pay off the local power before even engaging the enchanter. Furthermore, GMs will want to refrain from having GMI as found items unless they are central to the quest.

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-23-2019, 12:23 PM

Axel, the list looks good.

But I would be a little bit careful about the x10 for LMI since some of them do have ST cost and other balancing factors. But new, made to order, should have a hefty premium on them. This also makes other items worth more on the second-hand market, so a lot of the payment could be made with other loot.

GMI might be a little steep at x50 and roleplay services. I would probably go with one or the other.

The important part is to compare magic item prices with mundane prices or castles, counties, large houses, prestige, raising an army, hiring a retinue of 10 or 100 people and so on. A king can give away a barony title to a guild to get that Crown of Crownliness, but an adventurer might have a hard time choosing between one and the other as a reward for his services or when selling his loot.

My rule of thumb, when I GM is to never say no, just make it hard enough so the players face a real choice. And once they get the money, resources, favors together to get that uber item they had in mind, show them something else that will give them more viable choices like spending it all on a treasure map or a party fit to impress their new wealthy friends, or a dowry for marriage, or a share in a large manufactory, or reveal that many apprentices were hurt in the enchanting process, so they might end up razing the guild instead of employing it and then they find other comparable loot instead.

12-18-2019, 08:35 PM	#11
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate It is a significant flaw of the magic item section of Advanced Wizard and the new ITL that the stated rules about self-powered items seem not to have been enforced when the tables and descriptions were put together. And a large fraction of items don't state clearly one way or the other whether they are self powered. Very confusing.

12-18-2019, 11:35 PM	#12
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Nils, I agree that the new XP curve suggests fewer IQ 18 and 20 wizards to be able to enchant things. And since enchantments involve a series of DX rolls, and the costs seem to assume wizards mostly make their rolls, using non-DX 15+ enchanters will also drive up the prices to create magic items. The tables don't leave much room for profit margins either, which is pretty economically unsound. Although, there are some rules in ITL for selling magic items, which if GMs bother to read them, and assume the people selling the items tend to go through merchants with Business Sense and other reaction roll modifying talents, would tend to increase the sales prices. As I have mentioned on other threads, what we ended up tending to assume in our old games, even with the old experience costs and the assumption there were some DX 15 IQ 18-20 wizards in cities, that very rarely would they be available for hire to enchant things, and when they were, they'd be in demand from the nobility, militaries, guild masters and other very wealthy and powerful people, and so had little or no reason to need to sell to scruffy adventurers for anything like the listed prices. I think it's most interesting to think about how many wizards of what power exist in a campaign world, where they are and what they do with their time. And considering that, if you were a DX 15+, IQ 18+ wizard . . . you'd be rather powerful and smart compared to most people. Even moreso now that the attribute curve is rather lower than it originally was. Being so capable, powerful and smart, how much of your time do you suppose you would be choosing to devote to spending to enchant magic items for other people? Any at all? If you did, would you be willing to only be paid Wizard Guild job rate for your work? How much of a fraction of the item's worth do you suppose you'd need to be paid to make it worth your while? Would you be more inclined to sell to some adventurers with no social status, compared to the nobility, or a guild master, or someone else powerful willing to throw in some favors involving their power and authority as part of the bargain? We didn't think that'd happen very often. And even so, due to magic item propagation due to loot and adventures, and the growing experience that games where the PCs and their enemies have magic items tend to end up being largely about how many items people have rather than much about what their characters are like, and people without magic items started being impotent victims by comparison, we also added our Magic Item Breakdown house rules. But adding a ST cost for all magic items would have a similar balance effect.

12-19-2019, 09:32 AM	#13
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate I think the important details about the magic item creation rules are: the high IQ needed to even be in charge of such a thing; the large number of employees you need to be able to recruit, command and pay; and the long commitment of time to make anything major. Taken together, I find it absurd that anyone would then turn around and sell the product for the listed prices. Ask yourself what would be involved to create a PC who was capable of making, say, a self powered item with 2-3 useful spells on it, who then invested all the time and resources to do so. Would they then sell the thing for a few measly tens of thousands of silvers?

12-19-2019, 10:34 AM	#14
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Factors in magical item costs. Example: Stone Flesh ring First start with a physical appearance to make a salable product. Say a silver ring of $200 Next recruit an enchanter. This needs to be done every four years (because of job hazards and recruitment by others). Lesser Magic Item Creation is an IQ 18 spell so just charge the salary ($250/week). Also recruit six apprentices, with $300/week salary. You'll need a wizard's tower or other suitable infrastructure and security for that so add $50/week for the room rental on top of the $150/week to rent the lab and $50/week for supplies. (This is very cheap for the level of guards you'd want to hire, but assume a big complex with a lot of labs.) So the total operating costs are at least $800/week DX 12 is about the best you can hope for from an enchanter so each ring takes an average of around seven weeks at a total cost of $5,600 and the selling price needs to be around double the production costs to deal with retail markup so the final selling price is $10k plus or minus haggling. __________________ -HJC

12-19-2019, 12:47 PM	#15
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Nice example! So according to the table, this activity gets done for a loss, or possibly at-cost if you did it for a living in your own tower and somehow didn't have to worry about infrastructure costs, etc. The notion that a 38-40 point character with a team of hired wizard underlings would think this is a good use of time is just completely absurd. No player character would do it for less than 50 grand.

12-19-2019, 02:07 PM	#16
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate The listed enchantment costs do not include cost of living for apprentices, for one thing. I.e. ye old magic shop has empty shelves because all the would be enchanters starved to death in grad school. It is quite reasonable to charge double listed price for LMIC and triple for GMIC. (W/AE is easy enough so that "common" magic arms and armor are at listed prices, with uncommon configurations being very rare.) Potions are mass produced in facilities located where the ingredients are much cheaper than listed. Go ahead and apply the potion creation rules for any players who long to lose money on every batch. __________________ -HJC Last edited by hcobb; 12-19-2019 at 02:14 PM.

12-19-2019, 02:36 PM	#17
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate 100% markup seems pretty tame to me, especially considering the power / force / capabilities of many magic items, and who at the higher levels of society would be interested in them. These aren't just luxury items, and I don't think there's usually going to be surplus supply except for terribly impractical items (or which there aren't many and who would intentionally make them?) or items which almost no one can afford. See for example this article about estimates of current markups on modern goods: https://www.wisebread.com/cheat-shee...n-common-items And that's only talking about the margin for retailers... wholesalers also have costs and profit margins, and the companies that create things are below them and have their expenses and profits too. If industrial bluejeans, shoes and furniture get marked up 350%, items enchanted by IQ 18 enchanters with teams of wizards and apprentices... I really think it's a seller's market and depends on who can afford them and how desperate the seller is for cash. As well as various power considerations including possibly taking things by force.

12-19-2019, 04:24 PM	#18
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate You can't really compare with commonly mass-produced items today. And big expensive things, usually have a lower mark up and fewer levels between the producer and the end customer. But still. I would go with the listed prices as an absolute minimum. And with at least a x2 for all magic items. And a lot more for a LMI. GMI with multiple enchantments on them is government investments. In general, I prefer to keep the system and adjust it, so it doesn't play too big of a part in the world. If you make airships cheaper than sailing ships, your world will change, but if you make them available but really expensive or rare for other reasons, they will add spice to your game world, but they won't completely change harbors, trade, travel, warfare, and the fishing industry. So, make it available to the PC if the story needs it or the PC work for it, but limit it so the world is still recognizable. A world needs a lot of stereotypes to work, with some added well thought out changes, adding too many strange things will just make it inaccessible and confusing.

12-19-2019, 09:11 PM	#19
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Nils, Great insight. I used to have all magic items at x3 list price, if available. I now see that was too simplistic. From your well reasoned and clear explanations this seems to be a better approach: Modifiers to list price for unusual and magical equipment: Fine Weapons x1 Fine Plate x1 Wizard's Chest x1 Books/Tomes about Spells x1 Chemical Potions & Gas Bombs x1 (not magical) Alchemical Potions & Gas Bombs x2 Magical Scrolls x2 Enchanted Weapons & Armor x2 Less Magic Items x10 Greater Magic Items NA. Not on the common market. If you can persuade a great enchanter to create a GMI it will be x50 at a minimum and must also be worthy to the enchanter for other reasons (for political/social gain, for a deeply held cause, or for a personal quest that you will see through. And so on). And then you will need to come back when it is completed. If ever so. Word will get out that such a task is under way, and opposing forces may see the effort twarted or even the enchanter slain. It may be to your best interest to include or pay off the local power before even engaging the enchanter. Furthermore, GMs will want to refrain from having GMI as found items unless they are central to the quest.

12-23-2019, 12:23 PM	#20
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Alternatives that cost less, weigh less and encumber less than Fine Plate Axel, the list looks good. But I would be a little bit careful about the x10 for LMI since some of them do have ST cost and other balancing factors. But new, made to order, should have a hefty premium on them. This also makes other items worth more on the second-hand market, so a lot of the payment could be made with other loot. GMI might be a little steep at x50 and roleplay services. I would probably go with one or the other. The important part is to compare magic item prices with mundane prices or castles, counties, large houses, prestige, raising an army, hiring a retinue of 10 or 100 people and so on. A king can give away a barony title to a guild to get that Crown of Crownliness, but an adventurer might have a hard time choosing between one and the other as a reward for his services or when selling his loot. My rule of thumb, when I GM is to never say no, just make it hard enough so the players face a real choice. And once they get the money, resources, favors together to get that uber item they had in mind, show them something else that will give them more viable choices like spending it all on a treasure map or a party fit to impress their new wealthy friends, or a dowry for marriage, or a share in a large manufactory, or reveal that many apprentices were hurt in the enchanting process, so they might end up razing the guild instead of employing it and then they find other comparable loot instead.