Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In 2010, SO14, the branch of the London Met that handles protection of Royal Family, finally started issuing G26 to female constables. And this made news, because it was seen as a reverse of a long-standing policy that if you couldn't handle the standard weapons, you simply didn't get into certain units. For a long time, it seems that women with hands too small for a Glock 17 just had to accept that they were not going to become Authorised Firearm Officers.

That is hilarious since the grip on a G26 (and G19) is identical in circumference to a G17. By giving them a weapon with only a 2 finger grip they actually made it worse for the small handed shooter.

Originally Posted by Icelander

But the former military and police Rangers will no doubt much prefer not to have to rely on home-made weaponry of dubious quality.

Any decent machinist can make any modern firearm with a level of quality equal to or exceeding a mass produced example of the design provided the machinist has good data,appropriate tools, fixtures materials and time.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Using the machine shops and the gunsmithing skill of an old armourer sergeant to chop a number of retired L1A1 SLRs down into entry weapons with 15"-18" barrels, folding or retractable stocks and able to mount optics and tactical lights, however, might be a completely different matter. How practical would that be?
How much time would a lone gunsmith with a few ex-military assistants, working in a decent machine shop, need for a single weapon like that?

Replacing the furniture and top cover might take 10 min.

Chopping,crowning and threading the barrel might take 30 min if done the hard way. 5 min with a fixture.

You don't have to dick with the gas port since it is already adjustable.

Originally Posted by Icelander

How much could he do for a 30-40 year old Browning HP, retired from British Army service? Would he have trouble buying the parts to refurbish them without someone starting to wonder?

Buying firearms parts from the US requires being in compliance with ITAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ms_Regulations

Dunno anything about any UK import regs.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

That is hilarious since the grip on a G26 (and G19) is identical in circumference to a G17. By giving them a weapon with only a 2 finger grip they actually made it worse for the small handed shooter.

Possibly the actual reasons had more to do with comfort for all-day carry and/or concealability when carried by slighter persons, wearing fashionable female wear. The news articles were adamant that this had something to do with female constables, at any rate. I don't recall any official comment, though.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Any decent machinist can make any modern firearm with a level of quality equal to or exceeding a mass produced example of the design provided the machinist has good data,appropriate tools, fixtures materials and time.

Excellent. Data won't be a problem; tools and fixtures will be provided. The problem is materials and time.

No more than one or two armourers will be responsible for maintaining some 70-80 longarms and up to 300 pistols. Any necessary refurbishing and mounting of accessories will fall to him/them. For the first years, missions will be rare, but by 2010, there will be at least one per month, maybe more, which means that ca 80 people will go armed on missions over the year. Smallarms training will take place daily, but will not involve more than twenty people or so per day.

They'll have assistants, but not necessarily ones with any more training as armourers or machinists than just being a good soldier who is fairly apt with his hands, i.e. they'll know how to maintain weapons and check if there's any wear and tear necessiating professional attention, as well as mount accessories that are designed to fit.

Over time, some of the live-in members of the conspiracy who have sufficient interest and aptitute for gunsmithing could effectively learn the trade as apprentices. By 2010, some of them will have had the chance to do some work on the guns under the tutelege of a qualified armourer for several hours per day for maybe three or four years.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

On the other hand, any time the armourers spend on building guns from scratch, as opposed to refurbishing and converting ones obtained (less-than-officially) from surplus military or police armouries, is time that they can't use to handload exotic monster hunting rounds.

Replacing the furniture and top cover might take 10 min.

Chopping,crowning and threading the barrel might take 30 min if done the hard way. 5 min with a fixture.

You don't have to dick with the gas port since it is already adjustable.

So if they got their hands on 20 old SLRs, it wouldn't be implausible to suppose that a month later, they had twenty 7.62mm monster hunting entry carbines?

Is there anything they'd have to buy which Parker Hale (to take an example) is obligated to report to the authorities? And/or which might be regarded as odd if a single gunsmith in the country bought a few dozen?

Is buying a folding stock something which entails much paperwork, if done locally? Does anyone know what UK law is on 'tactical-looking' after-market parts, like folding stocks? Could you use the same stock for a bolt-action hunting rifle as you could for an SLR?

Edit: Evidently, magazines, sights and furniture (like stocks) don't count as 'component parts' and thus fall outside the scope of UK gun legislation. The question that remains is whether people would think it was odd or potentially report it to someone if a single gunsmith ordered a couple of dozen stocks of a distinct paramilitary appearance.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Buying firearms parts from the US requires being in compliance with ITAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ms_Regulations

Dunno anything about any UK import regs.

In practical terms, what does that mean for new parts for an old, tired pistol? Would it raise any eyebrows if a registered gunsmith needed a hundred or so?

In a country where only the government is allowed to own pistols? Probably.

Edit: Yep, the parts count as firearms, which makes the risk rather high. I guess that leaves us with the question of how much could you accomplish if you wanted to improve the Malf. of a pistol that in GURPS terms has a Malf. number of 16 or so because of age and hard use without having access to any new parts? How long does it take to make the new parts yourself, from scratch? How realistic is making such a weapon Fine (Reliable), without being able to buy any after-market parts?

I get the feeling that high-quality magazines are particularly important for semi-automatic weapon reliability. Are there any improvements which could be done on the Browning HP magazines to improve feeding? Are any sold* that you think would justify improving the Malf.?

*Since magazines aren't officially gun parts, they technically aren't subject to UK gun legislation. Buying a lot of them might raise eyebrows, but you are legally allowed to do so even by mail order or through the Internet, at least according to the website I checked. Of course, I could have missed some regulation which forbids it. In any event, buying a few through some fake corporation and using them as models for constructing some more might be possible.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The question that remains is whether people would think it was odd or potentially report it to someone if a single gunsmith ordered a couple of dozen stocks of a distinct paramilitary appearance.

Airsoft League.

Originally Posted by Icelander

In practical terms, what does that mean for new parts for an old, tired pistol?

Not much.
The only maintenance part on a BHP (or any semi-auto pistol) are the springs.

Originally Posted by Icelander

How long does it take to make the new parts yourself, from scratch? How realistic is making such a weapon Fine (Reliable), without being able to buy any after-market parts?

If our talented machinist has good data,tools and materials they could be churning out small parts in a couple hours of setup.
Program the CNC, set it up and drink a couple cups of coffee and read a novel while it makes your parts.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I get the feeling that high-quality magazines are particularly important for semi-automatic weapon reliability. Are there any improvements which could be done on the Browning HP magazines to improve feeding? Are any sold* that you think would justify improving the Malf.?

The bugs have pretty much been worked out of the basic 13 round BHP magazine over the last 80 years or so.
BHPs, as a rule, tend to be stone cold reliable.


FWIW, many OEM magazines are made by Mec-gar, not the actual manufacturer of the firearm.
http://www.mec-gar.com/

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

The bugs have pretty much been worked out of the basic 13 round BHP magazine over the last 80 years or so.
BHPs, as a rule, tend to be stone cold reliable.

In GURPS, they don't rate the same Malf. Very as SIG-Sauers, Glocks, HKs or other high-end TL8 firearms.

You think that as long as they were well-maintained by a qualified gunsmith, with any tired springs and worn parts replaced, it would be quite plausible for them to rate Malf. Very?

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

FWIW, many OEM magazines are made by Mec-gar, not the actual manufacturer of the firearm.
http://www.mec-gar.com/

I understand that a lot of the UK Brownings were considered less than reliable, having been in constant use, sometimes in very harsh places, for at least thirty years and sometimes up to fifty.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Airsoft League.

Good idea!

Maybe throw in a couple of re-enaction societies too. You can buy de-activated guns, particularly ones made before 1880 (or replicas thereof), with much less legal hassle in the UK. And I'm assuming that a qualified gunsmith can generally reverse that process fairly easily and without any loss of functionality. Given that criminals have been known to do it (but probably less reliably).

And for arming magicians among the Shadow Court, replicas of old school weapons, particularly if reconstructed using only hand tools, would be prefered, as they don't interfere with their own magic.

Maybe one pirate re-enaction group and one Victorian Colonial military one.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Not much.
The only maintenance part on a BHP (or any semi-auto pistol) are the springs.

Even fifty-year-old ones, in constant service all that time?

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

If our talented machinist has good data,tools and materials they could be churning out small parts in a couple hours of setup.
Program the CNC, set it up and drink a couple cups of coffee and read a novel while it makes your parts.

Excellent!

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

You think that as long as they were well-maintained by a qualified gunsmith, with any tired springs and worn parts replaced, it would be quite plausible for them to rate Malf. Very?

Yep.

I've got a grungy Israeli Kareen that has seen a couple thousand rounds of dirty steel cased Wolf and has never been resprung or cleaned, only squirted with motor oil (Mobil-1) before storage. It has yet to bobble.



I've always thought that the concept of Malf. was slightly wonky. Guns either work or they don't.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Icelander

And I'm assuming that a qualified gunsmith can generally reverse that process fairly easily and without any loss of functionality.

The way the UK mandates that it is done would basically require building a new firearm.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Even fifty-year-old ones, in constant service all that time?

Sure. It takes tens of thousands of rounds to wear out the frame or slide of a pistol and the only time most service pistols are shot is at qualifications.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Yep.

I've got a grungy Israeli Kareen that has seen a couple thousand rounds of dirty steel cased Wolf and has never been resprung or cleaned, only squirted with motor oil (Mobil-1) before storage. It has yet to bobble.

Excellent. Then I think that the full-size pistols used by the Rangers will certainly be refurbished L9A1s, with new magazines and replaced springs.

They do need a lot of more compact sidearms and back-up weapons, however. What are their options there?

You can replace the thick grip on a Browning with a slightly thinner one fairly easily, I assume. What about a chop-job like this one? How long does it take for our hypothetical armourer? Does he need any parts he can't make himself fairly easily? Does it introduce any problems? Reduce reliability?

Would it, in GURPS terms, result in a Browning with stats that had the same relation to the full-size one as the SIG P228 has to a full-size P226 or a Glock 19 has to a Glock 17?

I assume that even if it's possible to make a Bulk -1 back-up piece out of a Browning Hi-Power, the result would be a terrible and sad device with little relation to the illustrious parent. Am I wrong? It would be enormously difficult, wouldn't it? Would it work at all?

Even if it did, it might be harder than just building new Walther PPs/PPKs or any other small pistol with parts made in the CNC?

What about S&W Model 10s (in .38/200)? If you have access to dusty old UK armouries, police and military, you ought to be able to find several cases. Rescue them from destruction, if nothing else. How hard would these be to refurbish and 'Fitz' down to Bulk -1? How parts-compatible would such weapons be with S&W Model 36 revolvers, if they got some of those?

Edit: And, of course, the Webleys. How practical would it be to use (hardly fired) Webley IV and VI in .38/200 as the basis for a cut-down subcompact firearm, to be carried by academics and other field agents who need some protection, but don't want to carry a bulky firearm?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

The way the UK mandates that it is done would basically require building a new firearm.

Not in all cases. A recent (ca 2007) news report had an investigative reporter take such a deactivated weapon to a gunsmith and he could get it into active condition within less than an hour.

Edit: Which was because those weapons were deactivated before a 1995 change to the law which required more modifications, basically ruining the barrel (down to half the length, at least) and firing pin. Still, that seems like it would be less work to fix than making a whole new weapon.

In any case, muzzle-loading pistols, muskets or rifles are not hugely complex machines with many moving parts. Even cap-and-ball revolvers seem to me much simpler* than a modern semi-automatic. I think the same applies to cartridge revolvers.

*Which is not to say easier to maintain or more reliable. ;)