Fourth Age of Middle Earth gaming

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

He also didn't mention anything about all those peasants who fed those large armies.

But that's equally true of most of the historical studies published before 1900. History had always been about the upper classes. Tolkien is actually unusually attentive to economic issues in showing us the highly productive farms of the Shire and the fishermen who came to the defense of Minas Tirith.

Bill Stoddard

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

He also didn't mention anything about all those peasants who fed those large armies.

.
Two reasons:

• Most of the action in both the Hobbit and LoTR takes place away beyond settled lands You wouldn’t expect to find a lot of peasants way out in unpopulated wilderness.

• The heroes are mostly of the upper classes, with the notable exception of Sam. So peasants don't get as much page time.

Widfara strikes me as a 'common man’; my guess is that he was a herdsman. In days of peace he lived upon the open wold.
It's very clear that there are farms around Minas Tirith. Something the movies got wrong, by showing a big city sticking up out of grasslands with no sign of even herds of domestic animals, much less grain fields.

The notes mention vast slave worked fields beyond Mordor proper, where Sauron’s slaves toil. Not peasants, then, but slaves growing food.

But, no, the stories are not about peasants in Gondor dealing with the socieoeconomic consequences of a war with Sauron.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

But, no, the stories are not about peasants in Gondor dealing with the socieoeconomic consequences of a war with Sauron.

Until you get back to the Shire and see what Sharkey's men have been doing there. The effects on diet and housing and availability of simple pleasures for common folk is a big part of that chapter.

Bill Stoddard

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

It's very clear that there are farms around Minas Tirith. Something the movies got wrong, by showing a big city sticking up out of grasslands with no sign of even herds of domestic animals, much less grain fields.

He did mention farms not not nearly enough. For example, Gandalf, Aragon, Legoas, and Gimli crossed Rohan from north to south without encountering any farms or villages.

Originally Posted by combatmedic

The notes mention vast slave worked fields beyond Mordor proper, where Sauron’s slaves toil. Not peasants, then, but slaves growing food.

The comment was about the good guys not using slaves.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

He also didn't mention anything about all those peasants who fed those large armies.

At least he didn't make the Pelennor Fields a stony wasteland like Jackson did.


Hans

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Until you get back to the Shire and see what Sharkey's men have been doing there. The effects on diet and housing and availability of simple pleasures for common folk is a big part of that chapter.

Bill Stoddard

Bill, that's not Gondor.

But, yes, we do see the effects of the war on ordinary Hobbits.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Bill, that's not Gondor.

But, yes, we do see the effects of the war on ordinary Hobbits.

Neither is Rohan Gondor. I took the discussion to be of Tolkien's historical content generally.

Part of the point is that the Shire is the "realistic" setting of the novel, an analog of the England where Tolkien grew up. His heroes leave the Shire and venture physically into the realm of epics and sagas. And in that realm, farms and fishing fleets and herds of livestock are not so often encountered. In not writing much about them, Tolkien was being true to the material that influenced him.

On the other hand, when Frodo and Sam go into Mordor, logistics is never far from their thoughts.

Bill Stoddard

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

The ancient world was positively dripping with messianic religions, virgin births, popping up from the dead three days later, etc. Just because only one major one is still going, shouldn't mean that a writer can only refer to that one. If the author admitted that's what he meant, then cool. Otherwise it's a bit insulting, in my opinion.

Really? The only messianic religion I can recall is Judaism. Of course there were heroes slaying monsters and founding cities but those aren't quite messianic unless you stretch a point.

Virgin births? Well the gods had to come from somewhere. Usually they came from some other god's armpit or something or had spontaneous generation. Or whatever.

Three day resurrection? I am not sure that I can remember any tale of a three day resurrection. There are plenty of resurrection's; usually those are crop myths which require three months of death during winter and not three days.

Now you may know ancient mythology better then I, but "chock full of messianic religions, virgin births and three day resurrections seems a bit exagerrated.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

He did mention farms not not nearly enough. For example, Gandalf, Aragon, Legoas, and Gimli crossed Rohan from north to south without encountering any farms or villages.



The comment was about the good guys not using slaves.

A: You have missed some important details in the book.
Please pull out a map and check. Take note of where Edoras is marked, and where Fangorn forest stands. Note Isengard's location.

I quote directly from the text (page 417 in my combined edition)--

Often Aragorn wondered that they saw no sign of beast or man. The dwellings of the Rohirrim were for the most part many leagues away to the South, under the eaves of the White Mountains, now hidden in mist and cloud; yet the Horse-lords had formerly kept many herds and studs in the Eastemnet, this easterly region of their realm, and there the herdsmen had wandered much, living in camp and tent, even in winter-time. But now all the land was empty, and there was a silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace.

So, in fact, they passed through a mostly unpeopled portion of the kingdom. After encountering Eomer, they went off into the forest of Fangorn . They did not pursue the Uruk Hai through the more thickly inhabited regions of Rohan.

Rohan does have settlements, two of which are Dunharrow and Edoras. After encountering Gandalf in Fangorn and going back into Rohan, the heroes actually visited these settlements.



B: So what? I wasn't disagreeing with Bill. In fact, I agree with him about the good guys not keeping slaves. I'm simply pointing out another instance in which Tolkien mentions people growing food.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Spudzill

Well, if it a secondary Universe and not our world, they may have, in fact got it correct. If it is actually our own, then we do. Of course we're all pretty certain Middle-Earth is fiction. Still, Tolkein knew enough actual history to know it couldn't be our world, I think the problem was, he thought the only alternative could be Faerie, or the lands of the Norse Gods or something. I don't think it ever seemed like it could be an alternate universe or different planet about another star. He may have lacked that conceptual frame. He was born in the 19th century instead of the 20th, after all.

He was fully familiar with all those concepts, which is only natural since the 19th century was familiar with them too, esp. the former. He was a reader of SF, fond of Asimov's work, and he actually discussed the concept of alternate universes as the Elves saw such concepts at one point.

He didn't want to use those concepts, he wanted Middle-earth to be Earth, much of the concept was based on philological 'reconstructions' of ancient legends and stories of northern-European origin.