And ye shall know the Truth ...

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Because otherwise there's no point to the Corporeal Song of Tongues? :)

Quite frankly, from a meta-balance place? Yes. That's exactly the reason why the Seraphic resonance should tend to be restricted according to languages. "Niche Protection" is one of the things that SJ wanted In Nomine to have, though there are a zillion niches... (That particular question has not come up, but many other discussions establish that SJ doesn't want any one resonance, Song, attunement, etc., to significantly upstage someone else who took a given resonance, Song, attunement, skill, etc.)

That said, letting a Seraph get a sense of lies-or-truth, confounded by the language issue, would be perfectly reasonable -- reduce the check digit so they have to spend Essence or otherwise have sneaky ways of raising it again, for a chance at check digit 6, and they tend to get stuff like, "The person does not understand you" or "the person is saying whatever s/he said because s/he thinks you are a tourist trying to proposition him/her."

Anything that lets the Seraph substitute a resonance roll for having the language, without bringing along a whole bunch of entertaining ways to amuse the players and make the GM snicker... Is not what I'd say is intended for the game. If language issues are likely to be a problem that annoy the GM and bore the players, make translation artifacts easy to obtain for short-term adventures or just hand out a point or two in the language(s) necessary for Fun.

THAT said...

Originally Posted by William

We promise that the Canon Police will not come and beat down your door.

Seriously. Your game, your rules, have fun. Stars know I play fast-and-loose with rules when I feel like it, if I'm running a game.

Originally Posted by gjc8

What do you think happened at Babel?

Babel is Canon Doubt and Uncertainty at best, unless someone's been tweaking the timeline to put it into the GMG's timeline, and even then, it's probably a lot more different than the version that got written down afterwards.

(Which doesn't mean people can't use Babel as-is, in their own games, but when discussing with other people, you can't use Babel as an argument for or against some interpretation of the rules. Their Babel Might Be Different.)

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

The Symphony was created by God, not by humans.

This actually verges into CDaU territory as well...

[DBloch2012]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

The Symphony was created by God, not by humans.

Really? In the Core Rules it says that God wrote the Symphony.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Really? In the Core Rules it says that God wrote the Symphony.

And that's generally how it's played, and what the angels and demons know/believe to be true. The trick is that the Ethereals, the human-created dream-spirits that inhabit the Marches, claim that God was actually an Ethereal who hit the jackpot and then rewrote history/edited memories to solidify His position, so that everyone "remembers" Him as Composer. Both the angels and the demons consider this ridiculous (and in Heaven, it's considered outright heresy).

But that's what sends it into CDaU territory ... one of the questions each GM has to answer for him/herself is the nature of God (which tends to imply the nature of the Symphony as well).

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Really? In the Core Rules it says that God wrote the Symphony.

Page reference? I'm not finding that phrase in the Core Rules, nor anything similar in the likely sections that I've checked.

[DBloch2012]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Really? In the Core Rules it says that God wrote the Symphony.

It's at the very beginning of the book, in The Overture.

Originally Posted by In Nomine Core Rulebook, p. 5

In writing the Symphony, God created the heavens and the earth.

Though, what Rocket Man says makes some sense, too. It would probably help to grab some of the later supplements. It seems like In Nomine has shifted gears more than once since the Core Rules came out.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

Though, what Rocket Man says makes some sense, too. It would probably help to grab some of the later supplements. It seems like In Nomine has shifted gears more than once since the Core Rules came out.

Not so much shifted gears as expanded the focus and fleshed out the backstory -- though there was one change of line editors, which did have some tone/detail impact. At least, from my perspective.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Anything that lets the Seraph substitute a resonance roll for having the language... Is not what I'd say is intended for the game.

I don't understand how any reading of the Seraphic resonance would allow the above. The ability to detect lies (and very, very rarely Truths) does not in any way obviate the Song of Tongues.

Can someone provide an example situation where it would? The IP doesn't--the Seraph's inability to understand the response keeps him from understanding where things lie except on a CD of 6. (at lower CDs, knowing that the guy is a liar doesn't reveal whether or not he actually knows Pete, because the Seraph didn't understand the context of the lie). A Seraph operating under the Song of Tongues gets more information from the conversation under all CDs, so the Seraphic resonance definitely doesn't displace the usefulness of the Song.

That said, letting a Seraph get a sense of lies-or-truth, confounded by the language issue, would be perfectly reasonable -- reduce the check digit so they have to spend Essence or otherwise have sneaky ways of raising it again, for a chance at check digit 6, and they tend to get stuff like, "The person does not understand you" or "the person is saying whatever s/he said because s/he thinks you are a tourist trying to proposition him/her."

That seems like a much more sensible canon response.

--

Which doesn't mean people can't use Babel as-is, in their own games, but when discussing with other people, you can't use Babel as an argument for or against some interpretation of the rules.

Thanks. That's what I was getting at.

[Matthias Wasser]

"God" seems to designate a couple of unrelated things:

1) The Symphony as a whole,
2) A literal deus ex machina that intervenes in Archangelic politics,
3) A poetic stand-in for the same things people use it as a poetic stand-in IRL, at least when they don't mean anything in particular by it.

I think the setting is stronger if you drop the whole God thing, frankly.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Is the Babel event IN canon (such as Eden and the like)?

I liked the spin Demon: the Fallen gave it - Babel was a project by the rebel angels to nurture and build up a human civilization based on their values, and it was ultimately smashed by the Host for that reason. IMC, liberal democratic capitalism is Babel 2.0.

[DBloch2012]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

I think the setting is stronger if you drop the whole God thing, frankly.

If there is no God what happens when you roll a 111? One great thing I am itching to try in this game is the opposing Interventions. Not to mention, if you remove God from the picture the War becomes completely one-sided: there is Lucifer on one side, and suddenly no authority figure to hand out Words or pick Superiors on the other side.

God is integral to In Nomine. You can call Him whatever you want but He needs to be there. (Unless you use Yves for that role instead. >_>)

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

If there is no God what happens when you roll a 111? One great thing I am itching to try in this game is the opposing Interventions. Not to mention, if you remove God from the picture the War becomes completely one-sided: there is Lucifer on one side, and suddenly no authority figure to hand out Words or pick Superiors on the other side.

God is integral to In Nomine. You can call Him whatever you want but He needs to be there. (Unless you use Yves for that role instead. >_>)

Interventions can be rather interesting, yes. As my angel found out when a stray 666 caused the flame from a partner's Smite to accidentally drop onto him instead.

As far as Words and Superiors in Heaven ... yes, obviously all those came straight from God in the beginning and still occasionally do. In more modern times, those decisions are usually made collectively by the Seraphim Council. (It's also worth noting that Heaven creates Archangels much less frequently than Hell crowns Princes; prior to Christopher's elevation as Archangel of Children in the 1970s, the last previous AA raisings had been Laurence (The Sword) and Khalid (Faith) in the 8th century AD!

And yes, God is included in my own games. That said, the GM's Guide does include some optional alternatives ...