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Old 04-21-2018, 03:53 PM   #31
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Tech Level Confusion

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think they're relevant. "Superscience" is "here is an invention that lets us do things our current science supposes are impossible, thanks to the discovery of new principles." The classic SF example would be FTL. It's intended to mimic the transformation of imaginative possibilities that came about with the first synthesis of organic molecules, or the first radio transmission, or the first nuclear reaction, perhaps. And you can make up such a thing, and put it into a story, and explore its implications; a lot of SF does that.

But it's different if you write a story that intends to be exploring the possibilities of current technology, or of a modest improvement in current technology. And that's clearly what Verne was doing. .
Yeah but I don't care about what he intended to be doing. The fact is, he describes an impossible power source. Verne is not current, and his method for producing current (somehow drawing it out of seawater) is not currently within the realm of possibility. Superscience is just a tag that the game puts on certain technologies to say "There is no point in disputing the possibility of these things because we have already acknowledged them to be fantasy." The intent of the author is not relevant to the game.

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Old 04-21-2018, 03:57 PM   #32
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I think TL8+2 is best thought of as super optimized technology from our current day, where TL10 is based off of possible technology that could realistically happen in the future. An example would be that the TL8+2 world uses an super advance transistor technology using rubber logic and the TL10 world would use quantum computers.

So my thoughts are that divergent TLs are what ifs of the base TL with more advance version of the base technology or super optimized version.
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Old 04-21-2018, 04:32 PM   #33
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I think TL8+2 is best thought of as super optimized technology from our current day, where TL10 is based off of possible technology that could realistically happen in the future. An example would be that the TL8+2 world uses an super advance transistor technology using rubber logic and the TL10 world would use quantum computers.

So my thoughts are that divergent TLs are what ifs of the base TL with more advance version of the base technology or super optimized version.
I think that's overly limiting. It makes it sound like there are only two alternatives when at least when it comes to science fiction there are many more options.
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Old 04-21-2018, 04:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tech Level Confusion

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I think they're relevant. "Superscience" is "here is an invention that lets us do things our current science supposes are impossible, thanks to the discovery of new principles." The classic SF example would be FTL. It's intended to mimic the transformation of imaginative possibilities that came about with the first synthesis of organic molecules, or the first radio transmission, or the first nuclear reaction, perhaps. And you can make up such a thing, and put it into a story, and explore its implications; a lot of SF does that.
There are theoretical work arounds that would effectively be FTL:

"A valid form of FTL travel may mean distorting space-time (e.g. making a worm hole) to get from A to B without going on a spacelike curve locally. There is a distinction between going faster than light locally and getting from A to B faster than light globally." Is Faster-Than-Light Travel or Communication Possible?

Another option is have a "bubble" of space around the ship and that (with the ship inside) is what goes FTL (Warp Speed, Scotty? Star Trek's FTL Drive May Actually Work, The Science of Star Trek - Warp Drive)

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Interesting that you are defining current to mean current to the period in the story/setting, while most of us define it as the literal present.
The Basic Set is quite clear on this: '“Superscience” technologies violate physical laws – relativity, conservation of energy, etc. – as we currently understand them'. I can't see how anyone can read that as 'current to the period in the story/setting'.

So what the physical laws "known" for TL5 and TL6 are irrelevant for the label of Superscience as it depends on what we know at TL7-8 (Early TL9).

For example, take the so called "reactionless" drive in Steampunk. Strickly speaking it was not reactionless by Newtonian physics of the day: it pushed against the 'aether' and that push required energy so it wasn't violating the law of physics as understood back then. Because there was no limit on how fast something could travel under Newtonian FTL was possible; that method of FTL got thrown out with Einstein.

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Old 04-21-2018, 07:52 PM   #35
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One thing I think is important to keep in mind: There is superscience that violates physical laws by creating an effect we believe to be impossible. Then there is superscience that violates physical laws by creating effects we know or believe to be possible in a manner we believe could not produce them - such as clockwork machines matching or exceeding what modern computers can do, or rockets with performance that would require operating temperatures no real material could survive.
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:04 PM   #36
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Nonetheless, I don't think it counts as superscience if the author is simply being overoptimistic about the limits of the technology.
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:26 PM   #37
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I suppose it comes down to how overoptimistic you're being. Saying I can get to the moon using a chemical rocket the size of a bus is one thing. Saying I can get to Alpha Centauri in a reasonable time using chemical rockets is another.

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Old 04-21-2018, 08:35 PM   #38
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Nonetheless, I don't think it counts as superscience if the author is simply being overoptimistic about the limits of the technology.
I'd agree if we were discussing the original purely in its own right. But when judging a tie-in work (such as a game setting) that chooses to run with the now-debunked theory, I think you have to.
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:59 PM   #39
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I'd agree if we were discussing the original purely in its own right. But when judging a tie-in work (such as a game setting) that chooses to run with the now-debunked theory, I think you have to.
I don't think you do.

Here is a game based on, say, wuxia films, or superhero comics, or just high-end action movies. The GM decides that people who are hit suffer extreme knockback and fly across the room. This of course violates the law of conservation of momentum. Is that superscience, and do we need to invent a gadget or a superpower that allows the "enhanced momentum punch"? Or do we just say that this is an aspect of a cinematic campaign?

Here is a private eye campaign where detectives, as in some classic noir stories, get punched into unconsciousness and half an hour later get up and charge back into action, none the worse. Of course this is medically unrealistic. Is it superscience?

If not, then why does it become "superscience" when a gadget is involved? Sometimes it's just the way stories are told in a particular genre or idiom.
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Old 04-21-2018, 09:24 PM   #40
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I don't think you do.

Here is a game based on, say, wuxia films, or superhero comics, or just high-end action movies. The GM decides that people who are hit suffer extreme knockback and fly across the room. This of course violates the law of conservation of momentum. Is that superscience, and do we need to invent a gadget or a superpower that allows the "enhanced momentum punch"? Or do we just say that this is an aspect of a cinematic campaign?

Here is a private eye campaign where detectives, as in some classic noir stories, get punched into unconsciousness and half an hour later get up and charge back into action, none the worse. Of course this is medically unrealistic. Is it superscience?

If not, then why does it become "superscience" when a gadget is involved?
Because "superscience" is the gadget equivalent of "cinematic". Both of them mean "stop complaining that it can't happen that way">
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