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Old 10-27-2011, 01:35 PM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 2D or 3D?

Greetings, all!

As I mentioned in another thread, I consider it possible to create a game aid of sorts for G:Spaceships combat. As all fan tools, it is likely be born ugly and clumsy, especially in the graphics department, but it seems doable - as a simple 'space map' with movable/rotatable ships and their vectors; adding complexity later is possible but requires a lot of incentive for the author. ;)

The questions are:
  • Is there actually a demand for something like that? Or do people prefer MapTool or pencil and paper?
  • A poster said that 2D combat in space are Wrong©. IMHO adapting G:SS to 3D is not the most complicated thing (compared to the rest of the work required to make such a tool). BUT: How many people would actually want the engine to handle a 3D-map (complete with rotational freedom, a rotating/roaming camera etc.)? I get the feeling that many people find even 2D combat with vectors to be somewhat overcomplicated.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

While 2d space combat is of course wrong, I never thought it was a big problem for plausible combats. I may be wrong on that point.

An infinite map with vector support sounds handy, though I can't say with any confidence that I'd actually use it.

If you moved to 3d, would you be discarding the hex model and going with free 3-space movement, or what?
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
An infinite map with vector support sounds handy, though I can't say with any confidence that I'd actually use it.
Well, not infinite, but yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you moved to 3d, would you be discarding the hex model and going with free 3-space movement, or what?
Absolutely. Ships would simply have 'maximum rotation per turn' and rules for changing vectors would be the less discrete extension of the G:SS2 rules. Notably, a ship would have the freedom to rotate up to 60° (in any direction) for each hex of rotation it has, and a vector could be moved into the forward cone of 120° (up to 60° from the forward direction) relative to the original vector position.
Two easiest ways of designating direction would be MouseLook (think any FPS, or typical MMORPG with right-button pressed), or by designating a target ship and selecting either Intercept Course (at current speed), or Face Current Coordinates.

Making distances easier to measure is possible - distance spheres, visible vectors (as beams) are quite doable, and will not consume too much memory unless there's several transparent spheres for each of the many ships in battle.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, not infinite, but yeah.
Any particular reason for that?
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Any particular reason for that?
Because infinite is impossible in a computerized tool? Unbounded is quite a different thing though.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

I'd be interested.

Heck, I'd be interested in a tool that included two windows with hexes, one on a "x,y" and one window on a "y,z" orientation- that is how I have handled 3d spaceship combat (although when there are more than two or three ships, I just abstract to 2d). Two hex maps makes for a crowded table, but on a computer screen, it might work better.

If it is too ugly, I am willing to provide some graphics work (I dabble with Blender 3d). I do think that for maximum appeal, keeping the space ship counters fairly abstract is in order.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

I'm more than a little foggy about just what virtue 3D mapping has...except when you are travelling at such speeds that multiple celestial bodies are within your field of engagement.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

3D mapping would have some value if maneuver really meant much of anything in space combat, but space combat in any reasonably open space has a lot of resemblance to fighting on an infinite featureless flat plane, maneuver doesn't really do much.
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I'm more than a little foggy about just what virtue 3D mapping has...except when you are travelling at such speeds that multiple celestial bodies are within your field of engagement.
If you have three or more parties at wide separation, the vertical dimension could become relevant when maneuvering.
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Spaceships: Chance of a space combat aid. But is there a need? 3D?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I'm more than a little foggy about just what virtue 3D mapping has...except when you are travelling at such speeds that multiple celestial bodies are within your field of engagement.
3D mapping becomes interesting once your ship attack ranges are comparable to your typical speed per turn (e.g. if both range from 1 to 5 or 10 hexes or other standard units). It becomes even more interesting if ship sizes are comparable to hex sizes . . . (Yes, this is an SW example, was there ever any doubt?)

3D mapping generally means the grid is no longer hexagonal (there would be no sense in that). The simplest replacement grid is made of cubes, though I wonder if some other shape is viable (I think not). Using intersections of grid lines, instead of centres of grid sections, also seems a bit more convenient IMHO.
If there is no automatic alignment along the Z-axis (the axis parallel to ship vector forward), this will also remove the other effect of '2D Space' - the fact that when two ships approach each other, no matter where they come from, they will always be oriented the same way; you never see a ship flying "upside down".

The question how many people would use it remains. Just how many people are using ericbsmith's spaceships sheet? (Speaking of which, importing any sort of data from an xls is out of the question.)
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