Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

This is THS-inspired, but actually concerns the trait meanings that are relevant to any setting where they are present: what is the precise difference between Subjugated and Valuable Property?

The former means society treats you as the latter plus Second-Class Citizen, but there's still 5 points of cost discrepancy. For worked examples, AIs and uplifted animals tend to get Valuable Property, while organic robots (bioroids) tend to get Subjugated instead for some reason. To further complicate things, it appears that a person who is permanently* indentured, has no voting rights etc. is handled with Social Stigma (Minor).

Thanks in advance!

* == Or for an extremely long term, such as 18 years out of a commonly less-than-human lifespan.

[David Johnston2]

The differences between Subjugated and Valuable Property are:

1. Valuable Property is one of the stigmas that does not translate to actual reaction roll penalties. Subjugated peoples are not just controlled but disliked.

2. If you run away from a position as Valuable Property, then you gain your owner as an enemy, and you are risk of being found by others who see you as property. However you won't be killed because you are after all Valuable. If you run away from Subjugation on the other hand the entire society is out to get you and since you are more trouble than you are worth, they don't care if all they get is your corpse.

[Kromm]

Yeah, the difference is that Second-Class Citizen [-5] means you're a person who's regarded with vague distaste (-1 to reactions); Valuable Property [-10] means you're a non-person owned by a legal person, and thus covered by property laws (though perhaps ones specially worded for living chattels) rather than by laws pertaining to human rights; and Subjugated [-20] means you're a non-person who's regarded with vague distaste (i.e., the bad sides of both of the above), with the added downside that you're not even valuable property protected by law, so the only laws that apply to you are ones that give all legal persons leave to do whatever they feel like to you (which is where the extra -5 comes from).

Subjugated is supposed to be roughly as bad as Enemy (Entire culture; Hunter; 6 or less) [-20], but with the "6 or less" part replaced with "if you decide to do anything but be a slave." The idea is that nobody in such dire straits would be dumb enough to run without near-assured success, which is so rare that it's about equivalent to 6 or less. Valuable Property, by comparison, is more like Enemy (Entire culture; Watcher; 12 or less) [-10]: in all but the most private of circumstances (equivalent to 12 or less), everything you do is dogged by people who question and keep tabs on what you're doing.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Kromm

... in all but the most private of circumstances (equivalent to 12 or less), everything you do is dogged by people who question and keep tabs on what you're doing.

That would apply even to an emperor in societies where Valuable Property is most likely to be applicable. In some ways ESPECIALLY to an emperor.

You need a little elaboration. Perhaps describe how people question and keep tabs on them? Perhaps they are expected to give frequent gestures of ritual subordination, etc.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

That would apply even to an emperor in societies where Valuable Property is most likely to be applicable. In some ways ESPECIALLY to an emperor.

You need a little elaboration. Perhaps describe how people question and keep tabs on them? Perhaps they are expected to give frequent gestures of ritual subordination, etc.

Take a grandee. In such a society he is expected to give good parties, pay his gambling debts, be clever of speech and never ever run away in battle. If he doesn't he is looked down on by his peers. If he fails at the last he is looked down on by everyone, insofar as they can get away with it. But he is so visible that everyone watches.

In that same society there is a slave. Nobody notices him; there's more where that comes from. If he does something ostentatious like kissing master's daughter he will be flogged. And society will have a generic watch for runaway slaves. In a way society is "watching him". But it is not watching him intently. There are to many slaves.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

That would apply even to an emperor in societies where Valuable Property is most likely to be applicable.

Emperors normally have more power over those watching them than vice versa. In situation where that isn't true, such as pre-Meiji Japan, then "Valuable Property" is an accurate descriptor. And we were talking about difficult between Valuable Property and Subjugated, not defining Valuable Property.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Emperors normally have more power over those watching them than vice versa. In situation where that isn't true, such as pre-Meiji Japan, then "Valuable Property" is an accurate descriptor. And we were talking about difficult between Valuable Property and Subjugated, not defining Valuable Property.

Exactly. But Kromm was specifically referencing people "keeping tabs on you". Not actual power which is a different thing. I was pointing out that being kept tabs on is not necessarily a sign of lack of power.

To put it another way, would anyone care what a Prince's butler's wife wears to the beach? Except possibly the Prince's butler? But who has the higher status?

And while a hired servant may not be the same as Valueable Property, depending on the society, I think you get my point.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Exactly. But Kromm was specifically referencing people "keeping tabs on you". Not actual power which is a different thing. I was pointing out that being kept tabs on is not necessarily a sign of lack of power.
.

And the difference between Valuable Property and Subjugated is not a matter of lack of power.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

That would apply even to an emperor in societies where Valuable Property is most likely to be applicable. In some ways ESPECIALLY to an emperor.

You need a little elaboration. Perhaps describe how people question and keep tabs on them? Perhaps they are expected to give frequent gestures of ritual subordination, etc.

It's perfectly possible to have very high status and Valuable Property. Indeed it's pretty common for noblewomen.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's perfectly possible to have very high status and Valuable Property. Indeed it's pretty common for noblewomen.

Perfectly. The point however is that being constantly watched is not necessarily a sign. Valueable Property is often most applicable in intensely hierarchical societies. Those are often governed by a strict, indeed ruthless CoH. In other words everyone is constantly watching everyone else but those who are property, valueable or not, might well be less watched. Unless you are saying everyone is Valueable Property of everyone else, which when you think of it, might not be a bad way to describe it.