[Magic] What spells to use?

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

on missile shield/reverse missiles

This stuff would be pretty devastating if you just dropped it into a modern setting abruptly, but if people are used to it existing and are serious about shooting at wizards anyway they'll have appropriate countermeasures.

Magic is assumed to have:
Availability issues (manna zones)
Somewhat unusual but known countermeasures

By nature of the -10% 'magic' mitigator (-5% for the availability issues, -5% for the unusual but known countermeasures).

If you are running a game where the default GURPS magic system exists and the party never encounters either meteoric iron, deplete necronium, or other anti-magic materials against anyone who was equipped for a fight, and a no manna zone every now and again then you are giving mages 'free points', which WILL unbalance them compared to there non-caster friends.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

D&D characters can't take a sword thrust to the chest and not be in imminent danger of death. The system has no mechanics for taking a sword thrust to any specific body part and hit points for creatures that aren't giant sized are basically a measure of luck, not blood.

If that were the case the getting 'hit' by a poisoned weapon would only increase damage once (due to its increased threat and that a scrape would be almost as bad as a stab) rather then doing cyclic damage, absolute undodgeable/unluckable attacks (being caught in the cone of dragon's breath, being in a field of toxic mist, having a large object dropped upon you) would do much more damage or directly assault stats or some other mechanic. Instead a band of plucky level 12 adventurers can gingerly walk through the poison cloud that killed the entire village suffering only 20HP worth of damage, get struck by a poisoned blade and suffer 1d4 damage per turn for 4 turns, they can then heal up and set out into the wilderness without supplies and suffer 1d6 HP/hour > 24+constitution hours.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by starslayer

If that were the case

If it wasn't the case then AC wouldn't be a modifier to hit and HP wouldn't increase with levels. D&D's wound system doesn't really make much sense except as an aggregator of acceptable average results over several encounters.

absolute undodgeable/unluckable attacks (being caught in the cone of dragon's breath, being in a field of toxic mist, having a large object dropped upon you) would do much more damage or directly assault stats or some other mechanic.

Of course, if you use Vitality points or a similar option, that's what happens.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If it wasn't the case then AC wouldn't be a modifier to hit and HP wouldn't increase with levels. D&D's wound system doesn't really make much sense except as an aggregator of acceptable average results over several encounters. Of course, if you use Vitality points or a similar option, that's what happens.

I always looked at it as 'adventurers are heroically tough' Beowulf (level 13 warrior) goes blow for blow with the grendle and the force of there impacts against the walls actually collapses the building. Sir Fizbar (level 1 paladin) gets killed by two rats and an angry cat when he fails a search check and slips into the hay pile.

Much like in the earthdawn system- if your an adventurer you CAN have 16 spears sticking out of you turning you into some sort of humanoid pincushion and still be in fighting trim.

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I think the whole point of magic is that it doesn't have to follow the laws of physics. It just works. And spells often don't have all of their effects reflected in their prerequisites. The Grease spell, to take a semi-random example, has Haste as its only prerequisite. Should it have some sort of "creation" or "matter-altering" magic in its prerequisite chain in order to make a surface slippery? Of course not. It's magic. It just works the way it does. There's some logic to the prerequisite system, but it has little to do with the physics of how you would achieve a particular goal without magic.

Magic should still follow its' own internal rules and assumptions .
The spells in question do not .

Note , Grease and Glue are not what you think they are , they don't create anything material . They are simply creating a flat field that alters how that ground interacts with anyone moving on it which is why crampon boots don't work on the Grease spell and it gives no visual clue as to its presence .

Going by the example of Return Missile and Reverse Missiles , Fire Bolt shouldn't require any roll to hit or recieve a very heafty accuracy bonus {which would make it overpowered} .
Indeed given Reverse Missiles can as written can reverse literally an infinite number of missiles per turn for a fixed mana cost low enough for someone without an Energy Reserve or Powerstone to cast then there should be spells that throw say a dozen or more firebolts with uneering accuracy at seriously low cost compared to throwing the same number individually with the basic spell .



Again , if you simply "bounced" a missile back at its' owner in even the exact opposite vector , it would fall short of the Marksman as it no longer has enough energy to travell that far at that exact angle , and the spell still needs a magic means to measure the exact angle required etc that is consistant with the magic system in question .

The spells break the system , as written they're Munchkin spells .



There are good reasons for many spells to have mutliple prerequsites from different Colleges ; it keeps the system consistant and helps limit the need for somewhat silly all_or_nothing munchkin-like countermeasures like metal that is "immune" to magic {no other material in that entire universe mind you , just that one type of metal} or G.M.s ignoring/breaking the rules when you try to use your Magery 1 and 2 points of Fatigue to kill a Titan that the rules clearly tell you should be smote the next turn by the mountain He just threw at you .

If spells are not consistant to the core assumptions of the magic system {such as if you want a spell that does something with fire , you should probably learn something about fire} , then the system breaks along with susspension of dissbelief and player/G.M. tempers and then God kills a kitten , and none of us want that now do we ?









For a cheaper {and easier to learn} spell perhaps the spells' deflection mechanics can work like a virtual dodge that doesn't require you to do anything nor distract you and is uneffected by encumberance etc for the sole purpose of deflecting missiles {it is actually the deflection field deflecting the missile but works like a dodge in the rules} .
The dodge score would be 10+1 per mana and half to maintain {10+2 per mana if you can percieve the attacker clearly and concentrate on deflecting} Minimum 2 Mana .
To prevent this spell from deflecting Titan propelled mountains , the dodge is -1 per 3 full dice of damage and per missile SM greater than zero and if the score is reduced to less than 3 you plain can't deflect it {it's a mountain !111!} .
If deflecting more than one shot per turn , each shot after the first is at -1 .
A shot that gets a Critical Success gets through reguardless of your roll unless you also roll a Critical Success .
You still can perform a normal dodge/block {unless it is a mountain , let us be clear on this} .
Prerequsites are Magery 1 and Deflect or Apportation .

The one shot version costs half the mana per point of dodge over 10 and otherwise is the same .

The dulux version adds Sense Foe or Seeker to the Prerequsites , costs an extra 3 points and allows you to keep track of the location of each attacker that fired at you {even if they turn invisible or go behind visual cover or you are blind} and rolled no worse than 1 point more than their to hit number and gives you a targeting bonus to hit them of +2 and allows you to use any other aim bonus you might have with a Snap Shot {other modifyers still appily note so if they turned invisible you are -9 to hit in addition to all else} .

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

but if people are used to it existing and are serious about shooting at wizards anyway they'll have appropriate countermeasures.

Without bringing a Mage of their own or being in a D.F. campaign , I can't think of any that don't cost a fair bit given that Mage can still also be wearing Full Plate boosted with Deflect {up to +5 active defense isn't shabby !} and Fortify .

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Magic is assumed to have:
Availability issues (manna zones)
Somewhat unusual but known countermeasures

By nature of the -10% 'magic' mitigator (-5% for the availability issues, -5% for the unusual but known countermeasures).

If you are running a game where the default GURPS magic system exists and the party never encounters either meteoric iron, deplete necronium, or other anti-magic materials against anyone who was equipped for a fight, and a no manna zone every now and again then you are giving mages 'free points', which WILL unbalance them compared to there non-caster friends.

Having the Mana level drop to -10 {or worse if you build the world thus} at awkward moments and the odd chance you might accidentally summon a bellicose demon or set you horse on fire goes a fair way to covering that -10% . Scrapping or replacing spells that are inconsistant with the system and/or overpowered finishes the job .

Materials immune to magic are fine in D.F. which is basically D&D with a better system , but it is a clunky and slightly cheesy solution .
Same with zero Mana areas .
Having a Mage be Uberman unless you have kriptonite goes too far into the comic book for classic fantasy {again , unless it's D.F. and I know there are some good literary exceptions} .

Make Low {and Very Low etc} Mana areas more common than high and give mana something like weather patterns that can vary in an area over time {adding an element of unpredictability .
You might have a low mana trough sweep into the dangerous place your exploring right in the middle of a battle for example} .
A Mana storm could make magic dangerously unpredictable to varing degrees and the storm can come to you just like a mundane storm .

Have materials and perhaps some divine abilities {powered by Gods after all} provide penalties to mana powered spells or rolls to resist rather than outright perfect every time immunuity .

Cannoteffectinanywaywithmagicium is like the Adamantium of DC comics {why doesn't Magneto make a suit of armour from it ?} , Captain America's shield {why isn't He wearing that stuff !} or the uniforms of the Fantastic Four {don't get Me started on those} ; they are absolutes and as absolutes leave no room for variable in how they function create situations where things swing too far one way or another {which is why Power Word Kill types spells aren't in G.U.R.P.S Magic} .
Such things work well in Comic Book type games , but I don't think they work well in classic fantasy {and I don't class D&D as classic fantasy , though I do somewhat like it} .

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

D&D characters can't take a sword thrust to the chest and not be in imminent danger of death. The system has no mechanics for taking a sword thrust to any specific body part and hit points for creatures that aren't giant sized are basically a measure of luck, not blood.

The problem there is giant area attacks, and touch spells. In my decade of gaming, I've never seen a D&D campaign where hits on mid-level characters were consistently described as near misses or only affecting the extremities (although I did play up "the sword glances off your armour, but you feel bruised" when I was GM). When high-level D&D spellcasters are walking artillery pieces and can manipulate the fabric of space and time, I don't have trouble believing that high-level D&D fighters who can trade blows with giant monsters are as tough as superheroes. I don't understand sir_pudding's comments.

In GURPS terms, I would give a high-level D&D fighter extra HP, and Luck, and enhanced defenses, and Weapon Master, and Combat Reflexes, and ridiculously good weapon skills, and high HT.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The problem there is giant area attacks, and touch spells. In my decade of gaming, I've never seen a D&D campaign where hits on mid-level characters were consistently described as near misses or only affecting the extremities (although I did play up "the sword glances off your armour, but you feel bruised" when I was GM).

The problem is actually that D&D Hit Points don't measure anything and don't mean anything; everything they and AC are supposed to be is covered at least in part by the other, and effects on both are basically arbitrary. The flavor text justifying Hit Points and their increasing with level indicate as others have said; however, if knowing to roll with the blow/dodging/luck/et cetera were really part of HP, then Dexterity and Wisdom would give bonuses to HP.

Originally Posted by Gnome

and it makes permanent creation spells last only one day (which deals with your Essential Wood problem)

Essential Wood doesn't permanently create an item, it permanently changes a wooden item into a wooden item that is three times as strong. Should, say, Purify Water be given a duration?

Originally Posted by Polydamas

As in the other thread, it would really help if you defined "generic."

How about: what spells would you want adventurers to have in a dungeon crawl or wilderness romp, as both a player (feeling satisfied with the powers you've bought) and as a GM (knowing they're not going to cheese through, or around, your scenario too quickly)? What spells that might break adventures ought NPCs still be allowed to take? What spells that aren't too good on adventure would hurt a fantasy economy as you're used to seeing it?

(Healing spells possibly driving mundane doctors out of business being a necessary weasel, for example; they're too good for adventurers to be dropped. Adventurers are our priority concern here.)

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Indeed given Reverse Missiles can as written can reverse literally an infinite number of missiles per turn for a fixed mana cost low enough for someone without an Energy Reserve or Powerstone to cast then there should be spells that throw say a dozen or more firebolts with uneering accuracy at seriously low cost compared to throwing the same number individually with the basic spell .
...

Note that in most combats, Reverse Missiles actually sends back only one or two attacks before somebody on the opposing side makes an IQ check and they all stop firing missiles at the guy with Reverse Missiles on. It's a neat trick, but not really earth-shattering.

To prevent this spell from deflecting Titan propelled mountains
...

If a Titan throws a mountain at you, I think it would be safe to describe that as an area attack, aimed at a huge area that happens to include you. Reverse Missiles would not apply. In fact, in my games I've had giants throw huge boulders at PCs and treated it as an attack on the PCs' hex, unaffected by Reverse Missiles. Sunbolt goes through it, meteoric weapons go through it, Explosive Fireballs can still damage you (because, once again, they're fired at your hex)...and of course there are always melee attacks. It's a powerful spell, but fun enough to play with if you don't let it do everything all of the time...

[Crakkerjakk]

My stock house rules for Magic is The Renegade Mage's Magic House Rules. Seems to mostly fit your criteria, as far as removing the gamebreaking stuff and having some notes on the unintended economic effects of some spells.