[Magic] What spells to use?

[simply Nathan]

Let's say I want to use the rules in GURPS magic as written. Spells cannot have their prerequisites, casting time, or energy costs changed from what is written. Durations can be changed (for example, "Permanent" to "Instant") if this better fits the intent of the spell as presented, as may damage types of spells that inflict wounds. I want to enable wizard adventurers to contribute meaningfully without drifting the setting away from the generic.

• What spells really ought to show up?*
• What spells should be restricted to NPCs or require Unusual Backgrounds?**
• What spells ought to be outright banned from the setting?

* I would expect Recover Energy, Armor, Major Healing, Mass Sleep, Explosive Fireball, Shapeshift Other, Powerstone, and by extension their prerequisites.
** I would put Essential Wood here; I think it's awesome to have, but I can see how munchkin-friendly it is for anyone who wants really nice wooden equipment.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

Let's say I want to use the rules in GURPS magic as written. Spells cannot have their prerequisites, casting time, or energy costs changed from what is written. Durations can be changed (for example, "Permanent" to "Instant") if this better fits the intent of the spell as presented, as may damage types of spells that inflict wounds. I want to enable wizard adventurers to contribute meaningfully without drifting the setting away from the generic.

• What spells really ought to show up?*
• What spells should be restricted to NPCs or require Unusual Backgrounds?**
• What spells ought to be outright banned from the setting?

* I would expect Recover Energy, Armor, Major Healing, Mass Sleep, Explosive Fireball, Shapeshift Other, Powerstone, and by extension their prerequisites.
** I would put Essential Wood here; I think it's awesome to have, but I can see how munchkin-friendly it is for anyone who wants really nice wooden equipment.

You might want to take a look at this thread, mostly about Dungeon Fantasy, but it contains some nice spell lists for wizards. DF 1 is worth checking out by the way--it tones down a few spells (like Invisibility, which is otherwise way too powerful), it restricts wizards from casting healing spells (leaving that job to clerics), and it makes permanent creation spells last only one day (which deals with your Essential Wood problem).

In terms of restricting spells in other less "amped-up" games, it really depends on what restrictions you're putting on the other (non-caster) characters. If you allow them to get cinematic advantages like Weapon Master, Luck, etc., then there's probably no need to restrict spells.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Gnome

...and it makes permanent creation spells last only one day (which deals with your Essential Wood problem).

"If your Essential Wood lasts longer than one day..."

[Mr Frost]

Essential Wood , used in the crafting of a Staff of Ron Jeremey .


Missile Shield , Return Missile and especially Reverse Missiles are overpowered and/or too cheap etc as written for what they actually do {perfect defense and verses an infinite number of attacks in the first and last case to begin with} .

Missile Shield should have divination prerequsites in addition to what it already has {it is perfectly detecting and intercepting each shot in a 360° sphere automatically in any lighting condition and reguarless of attacker/missile stealth measures which would require some heavy duty divination magics} and probably and either cost more Mana {at least double} or have shorter duration {one second} or an Unusual Background which allows someone/thing to provide the real time threat detection data that the spell can use to target and intercept each missile .








Reverse Missiles is a lot worse in that it reverses the missiles' attitude and vector including kinetic energy and momentum in such a way that it first is using energy to arrest the missiles motion and turn it around and either reverses the vector of it's existing kinetic energy and momentum or removes such and the after turn around creates all that plus it then must add the exact amount of energy lost in reaching you plus adjusting the aim to compensate for any crosswinds {which will require the opposite corrections the archer/rifleman etc used} plus any extra enery if the missle was travelling down wind to you and now must fly into that same wind . {just revering a missile including contained energy would have it land infront of the marksman at anything much beyond point blank range to begin with}

This would require very potent divination and knowledge based magics and lots of raw energy .
I'd say that as written cost should double {unless Unusual Background has it mostly powered by a God} , duration per second , a lot more Prerequsites including the max level of magery and atleast the Unusual Background of trained by a Master {Wizard} . Requireing the mage to focus exclusivly on the spell could replace the mana cost increase or duration reduction but I'm not sure if that would fit into your critera .

For the one per casting Return Missle , the same changes should appily as it is still not just providing perfect defense {unless you fail the spell roll} but also perfect aim and would require a lot to happen by the assumptions of G.U.R.P.S. Magic as written .

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

I would put Essential Wood here; I think it's awesome to have, but I can see how munchkin-friendly it is for anyone who wants really nice wooden equipment.

Yeah, I can't even count how many of my games have been broken by that...

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

"If your Essential Wood lasts longer than one day..."

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Essential Wood , used in the crafting of a Staff of Ron Jeremey .

Cue a swarm attack by spambots peddling little blue pills in 5, 4, 3...

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Missile Shield , Return Missile and especially Reverse Missiles are overpowered and/or too cheap etc as written for what they actually do {perfect defense and verses an infinite number of attacks in the first and last case to begin with} [snip logical arguments because hello? Magic?]

This stuff would be pretty devastating if you just dropped it into a modern setting abruptly, but if people are used to it existing and are serious about shooting at wizards anyway they'll have appropriate countermeasures.

[Taneli]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

<SNIP>

This stuff would be pretty devastating if you just dropped it into a modern setting abruptly, but if people are used to it existing and are serious about shooting at wizards anyway they'll have appropriate countermeasures.

As was the case in GURPS Technomancer, where they had depleted necronium, or something such that went thru all magic like it wasn't there.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Missile Shield should have divination prerequsites ... or an Unusual Background which allows someone/thing to provide the real time threat detection data that the spell can use to target and intercept each missile .

Reverse Missiles is a lot worse in that it reverses the missiles' attitude and vector including kinetic energy and momentum...
This would require very potent divination and knowledge based magics and lots of raw energy . ...

I think the whole point of magic is that it doesn't have to follow the laws of physics. It just works. And spells often don't have all of their effects reflected in their prerequisites. The Grease spell, to take a semi-random example, has Haste as its only prerequisite. Should it have some sort of "creation" or "matter-altering" magic in its prerequisite chain in order to make a surface slippery? Of course not. It's magic. It just works the way it does. There's some logic to the prerequisite system, but it has little to do with the physics of how you would achieve a particular goal without magic.

[Lamech]

Hmm... I actually went through magic, and made a list of allowed/banned spells. It won't quite fit your purposes because some of the spells banned are prereqs for other non-banned spells. I'll see if I can dig it up.

One thing that has always jumped out at me as a terrible idea in the standard magic system though: The time manipulating spells. There is no quicker way to break a campaign then deciding to spend a few thousand hours studying stuff before the next adventure with time out. Or going back in time three days, a few hundred times in a row. And studying can be replaced with inventing, crafting, working exercising ect.

Another thing that you should toss IMO: Cerimonial magic, or at least normal untrained people helping. "Want a youth spell? Okay, help me cast these other 100 youth spells and I'll cast one on you for a few hundred coins." Same basic idea can be repeated with bless, bless plants ect. This creates one of two (or both) problems a) everyone is blessed, eternally youthful and bumper crops abound or b) Mages make inane amounts of money casting blessings and youth spells on the rich.

[Polydamas]

As in the other thread, it would really help if you defined "generic." IMHO, GURPS Magic has always been its own thing; its based on a set of linked assumptions that are different from all other fiction and games that I know. Similarily, D&D's assumptions aren't very generic (spellcasters and high level characters tend to be weaker in fiction than in games, because people have a hard time telling stories about people who can fall a hundred feet or take a sword thrust to the chest and not be in imminent danger of death).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

As in the other thread, it would really help if you defined "generic." IMHO, GURPS Magic has always been its own thing; its based on a set of linked assumptions that are different from all other fiction and games that I know. Similarily, D&D's assumptions aren't very generic (spellcasters and high level characters tend to be weaker in fiction than in games, because people have a hard time telling stories about people who can fall a hundred feet or take a sword thrust to the chest and not be in imminent danger of death).

D&D characters can't take a sword thrust to the chest and not be in imminent danger of death. The system has no mechanics for taking a sword thrust to any specific body part and hit points for creatures that aren't giant sized are basically a measure of luck, not blood.