[Fantasy/Magic] Revised spell selection?

[Phantasm]

I've been thinking of tinkering with the choices for spells for my TL4 Renaissance Fantasy campaign setting. I'd like to keep the basics of the default magic system intact - spells are skills, most of which are IQ/H, and cost energy (FP, HP, ER, etc) - while tinkering with the spell effects. Not sure if I want to keep the prerequisite system or not; more than likely I'd have "requires X spells of the same college, and maybe one or two from other colleges".

Colleges ... The core colleges seem appropriate, with some exceptions. Weather wouldn't be its own college, but made into a sub-heading like "Regular", "Missile", or "Information". Technology would be divided into Metal and Energy, most likely (IDHMBWM, so I can't remember if Energy and Fuel are distinct sub-headings or not). Gate would either be moved into Movement or ignored completely; the setting also has Path/Book magic which has a distinct Path for a lot of what the Gate college offers. (I was thinking that the Path of Planar Travels would replace the Gate college.)

I'm also thinking of making a number of IQ/A spells under a Cantrips heading. These would be simpler spells, costing a minuscule amount of energy to cast.

So, suggestions or ideas to expand on this? Spells you'd like to see as Cantrips?

[Cheomesh]

Power-Ups: Perks has a few perks (1 point advantages) that might give inspiration.

M.

[Phantasm]

One current change:

The following are the different classes for the (Animal) Control and Repel (Animal) spells:

Insect - really "arthropod", and includes any legged invertebrate.
Mollusk - any mobile invertebrate without legs, such as as slugs, snails, starfish, octopi, squids, and earthworms.
Fish - includes sharks
Reptiles - includes amphibians
Birds - no real changes here
Mammals - excludes any animal with a racial IQ of 6, such as gorillas, chimpanzees, orcas, whales, and dolphins

Any group I might have missed? Thoughts about splitting squids and octopi into their own category?

[Polydamas]

This is necessary to use GURPS Magic in a rational and flavourful setting, but a lot of work. David L Pulver had a post from 2004 or so where he suggested guidelines: make a base list which should work in most settings with magic, create groups of spells for each genre or setting, absorb all the spells that do a common job task into a sidebar on cantrips.

I would start by thinking hard about how I wanted magic to work in my setting and use that to create a list of a few hundred commonly available spells. SJ's original assumptions can be fun (magic is about little, short ranged, specific effects that you can cast many times a day; staffs and powerstones; no spell can instantly kill or render helpless an opponent without a counter (Flesh to Stone, Stone to Flesh) or a limitation (Total Paralysis requires you to touch the subject's head)) but not all the spells in Magic 4e fit these.

I would get rid of Copy, Earth to Metal, the Technology spells, and some others.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

One current change:

The following are the different classes for the (Animal) Control and Repel (Animal) spells:

Insect - really "arthropod", and includes any legged invertebrate.
Mollusk - any mobile invertebrate without legs, such as as slugs, snails, starfish, octopi, squids, and earthworms.
Fish - includes sharks
Reptiles - includes amphibians
Birds - no real changes here
Mammals - excludes any animal with a racial IQ of 6, such as gorillas, chimpanzees, orcas, whales, and dolphins

Any group I might have missed? Thoughts about splitting squids and octopi into their own category?

Are you trying for a historical Renaissance fantasy feel? Because those categories are a bit anachronistic; they're essentially Linnaeus's six "classes" of animals, which he came up with in the 1700s. A Renaissance mage would be more likely either to use the folk classes in the book, or to use Aristotle's groups: animals with blood (basically vertebrates), subdivided into viviparous quadrupeds (but including cetaceans), oviparous quadrupeds, birds, and fish, and animals without blood (basically invertebrates—"blood" to Aristotle meant red blood), subdivided into arthropods, shelled animals (most mollusks, most echinoderms, probably barnacles), soft animals (basically cephalopods), and plant/animals (sea anemones, sponges, and the like—pretty much anything "rooted"). Aristotle's version seems like it might be a better fit to what you're looking for.

Bill Stoddard

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Are you trying for a historical Renaissance fantasy feel? Because those categories are a bit anachronistic; they're essentially Linnaeus's six "classes" of animals, which he came up with in the 1700s. A Renaissance mage would be more likely either to use the folk classes in the book, or to use Aristotle's groups: animals with blood (basically vertebrates), subdivided into viviparous quadrupeds (but including cetaceans), oviparous quadrupeds, birds, and fish, and animals without blood (basically invertebrates—"blood" to Aristotle meant red blood), subdivided into arthropods, shelled animals (most mollusks, most echinoderms, probably barnacles), soft animals (basically cephalopods), and plant/animals (sea anemones, sponges, and the like—pretty much anything "rooted"). Aristotle's version seems like it might be a better fit to what you're looking for.

Actually, they weren't based off anything but a kind of "common sense" feel. Fish, Reptile, Bird, and Mammal from Magic, but splitting "Vermin" into "legged" and "legless" - "insect", and "mollusk" or "slug".

Hmm... using Aristotle's method, I can match up the following:
Mammal = viviparous quadruped
Reptile = oviparous quadruped
Bird = bird
Fish = fish (likely includes sharks)
Insect = arthropods
Mollusks = shelled animals (likely includes shell-less slugs as well)
Cephalopods = soft animals (squids/octopi)

Or, I can have all "marine life" fall under "Fish". (I was thinking the IQ 6 stuff like the great apes and whales/dolphins would require Mind Control rather than (Animal) Control.)

When were sponges, anemones, and the like recognized as animals rather than plants?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

When were sponges, anemones, and the like recognized as animals rather than plants?

Well, it seems that Aristotle had figured that out. He did list "zoophytes" among the groups of animals. I haven't checked Historia Animalium to see exactly what he said about them. But it makes sense that he could have realized they were animals; he was the son of a physician and was an enthusiastic natural historian who dissected animal specimens.

Whether anyone before Aristotle had the idea I don't know. I think I would call it TL2. I would call serious cataloging of life forms TL5.

Bill Stoddard

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, it seems that Aristotle had figured that out. He did list "zoophytes" among the groups of animals. I haven't checked Historia Animalium to see exactly what he said about them. But it makes sense that he could have realized they were animals; he was the son of a physician and was an enthusiastic natural historian who dissected animal specimens.

Whether anyone before Aristotle had the idea I don't know. I think I would call it TL2. I would call serious cataloging of life forms TL5.

Even so, I still don't see Sponge Control or Repel Sponges as useful spells. :)

You have any thoughts as to which spells to make into cantrips? One of the other threads had mentioned a Cantrips advantage to perform these spells; I thought of using an IQ/A or IQ/H skill (probably IQ/H with individual cantrips as IQ/A optional specialties) for them, with Magery 0 as the only prereq. Other than Detect Magic, Ignite Fire, and possibly Flavor, I'm not sure what other spells would make suitable cantrips.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Even so, I still don't see Sponge Control or Repel Sponges as useful spells. :)

You have any thoughts as to which spells to make into cantrips? One of the other threads had mentioned a Cantrips advantage to perform these spells; I thought of using an IQ/A or IQ/H skill (probably IQ/H with individual cantrips as IQ/A optional specialties) for them, with Magery 0 as the only prereq. Other than Detect Magic, Ignite Fire, and possibly Flavor, I'm not sure what other spells would make suitable cantrips.

David Pulver suggested (link) that any spell that does the work of a boring IQ/E or IQ/A job skill should be lumped into a sidebar on cantrips or servitor spirits (and toned down so that the result isn't much better than using that skill- nobody would complain about wizards as human printing machines if magical copying was done one copy at a time by spirits about as smart as a bored journeyman scribe). I would keep Season and Ignite Fire as is; those spells are useful. But Haircut and Copy and Cook and Predict Weather might go. Boil Water might be lumped into Heat, and so on.

Whenever I think about reforming the spell list, I get intimidated by the size of the job and lack of flavour of the current list and give up.

[Phantasm]

I had a thought last night for the spells which might help.

Instead of giving a long, convoluted prerequisite chain, divide the spells by "level" inside the college, the level being the level of Magery necessary to cast it, similar to how the Dungeon Fantasy cleric spell lists divide by Power Investiture needed to cast them. In essence, the simple, rudimentary spells would be Magery 0 spells, the majority of the basic combat and utilitarian spells would be Magery 1 spells, more powerful spells would be Magery 2 spells, and the most potentially game-breaking spells would be Magery 3 spells.

As far as prereqs would go, you would need to know at least two spells of a lower tier in order to learn a higher tier spell. If a spell has an "energy" description (such as Lightning, Acid, or Ice), you'd need at least one of the lowest tier spells with that description (i.e. Lightning and Shocking Grasp would both be M1 spells; either would be the prereq for Body of Lightning, which would be an M2 or M3 spell).

Small spell college example:

Animal College:
M0: Beast-Soother, Beast-Rouser, Master
M1: (Animal) Control, Beast Summoning*, Beast Speech, Repel (Animal), Rider, Spider Silk, Beast Seeker, Protect Animal
M2: Beast Link, Rider Within, Shapeshifting, Partial Shapeshifting
M3: Beast Possession, Permanent Beast Possession, Shapeshift Others, Permanent Shapeshifting, Great Shapeshift.

* This spell would be modified from its RAW description by limiting it to "cannot summon anything with the intent to kill it", making it relatively useless for hunters (and especially poachers).