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Old 09-21-2017, 01:18 PM   #51
Varyon
 
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
No, that's the job of a guard. The job of a sentry is to notice that the infiltrators exist and raise an alert so superior force can be brought to bear.
The English words "Guard" and "Sentry" have sufficient overlap that calling them synonyms wouldn't be inaccurate. According to dictionary.com, a sentry is "1. a soldier stationed at a place to stand guard and prevent the passage of unauthorized persons, watch for fires, etc., especially a sentinel stationed at a pass, gate, opening in a defense work, or the like. / 2. a member of a guard or watch." So, I'll stand by my statement.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

In the US the job is pretty clearly defined whatever you call it, and is pretty much the one thing (well 11 things) every serviceman is supposed to know:
http://www.military.com/join-armed-f...al-orders.html

Note that "I will not be garroted" isn't on there.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Note that "I will not be garroted" isn't on there.
Though it's an indirect requirement, unless you have the ability to perform the other 11 tasks after being garroted.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Though it's an indirect requirement, unless you have the ability to perform the other 11 tasks after being garroted.
My point is that it supports what you are saying. The duty of a sentry/guard/firewatch/whatever is primarily sensory. Nobody is expected to repel an assault by himself.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:15 PM   #55
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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My point is that it supports what you are saying. The duty of a sentry/guard/firewatch/whatever is primarily sensory. Nobody is expected to repel an assault by himself.
I'm not talking about a sentry's duties when the base gets assaulted in the night, I'm talking about a sentry's duties with regards to an infiltrator (the sort of situation where one is more likely to expect some up-close-and-personal sentry removal). Still, we've gotten into the point where we're essentially arguing over the meaning of a word, and that never gets anyone anywhere, so I'll just drop my little "arguably failed" aside. I'll still say that neck armor isn't very likely on a sentry/guard/whatever you want to call the guy the infiltrator is killing, but I think I've made my point clear enough and will probably drop it now, rather than continuing to derail this thread.

Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:58 PM   #56
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
Just from my experience with animals I would say starting with a thrust is the most effective way to do it. YMMV however but starting the cut with the blade against the inside of the spine means you definately cut all the vital bits and there is less chance of the blade skipping off and hard objects in the way, like armour. Also you are not cutting towards yourself with a knife while restraining a struggling target.
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Last edited by (E); 09-21-2017 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:20 PM   #57
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Set, does my Draw Cut suggestion look like something you'd want to use for the whole throat-slitting bit?
Hey! If I understand correctly, your rule is divided in two attacks: one to place the blade, and another to slice the target?
Does the first hit deal any damage?

It's good that it has a default that's not so punishing. The way I've constructed the technique here means it's almost mandatory to have it trained, otherwise you'll suffer something like -10 on each hit.
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.Realistic Trademark Move using official rules to snuff out guards everywhere: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentleman.)
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:56 PM   #58
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Just from my experience with animals I would say starting with a thrust is the most effective way to do it.
Stabbing, then slicing, is certainly going to be more effective than slicing alone, but it's going to be a bit more difficult to hit with that first stab. I noted in my linked post that the following option is most appropriate in a cinematic campaign, but I was probably overstating things, and it probably wouldn't be out of place in a normal campaign - taking a -6 (total -8 for untrained Draw Cut, not counting hit location penalties) on the first attack allows it to be both an attack and a setup for doing a Draw Cut (at normal Draw Cut followup modifiers) the same round. As this is now an attack rather than a sorta-kinda grapple, you use full hit location penalties for this first attack rather than half.

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Hey! If I understand correctly, your rule is divided in two attacks: one to place the blade, and another to slice the target?
That is correct. Note the target gets a defense against both, and the second can only occur if the first succeeds (but defending against the second is fairly penalized).

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Does the first hit deal any damage?
Nope. If you want it to - either as a grapple (in which case the damage is mostly CP, although with a knife this can mean a bit of cutting damage) or as a thrust attack, like I mentioned above - you can do so by taking a further -6 (-3 for WM/TbaM) on the first attack, which also means you don't halve the hit location penalties.

So, for stabbing someone in the neck and slitting their throat in one action, that's -13 for the first attack (-5 for Neck, -2 for Draw Cut, -6 for being an actual attack), -2 (just for Draw Cut) for the second. This is as opposed to the -5 (-3 for Neck, -2 for Draw Cut) for the first and -2 (just for Draw Cut) on the second you'd normally suffer for a Draw Cut that doesn't damage on the first strike. If you can afford to go All Out for the attack, I'd suggest Double, which gives a +6 to each roll (so -7/+4 for stab-n-slice, +1/+4 otherwise).

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It's good that it has a default that's not so punishing. The way I've constructed the technique here means it's almost mandatory to have it trained, otherwise you'll suffer something like -10 on each hit.
Yeah. It's unfortunate that I've lost the document where I worked out the price, but I basically started with a two-hit Rapid Strike and applied a custom +4 for no damage (which I sort of got from a discussion with Douglas Cole, but don't mistake that for a general endorsement on his part) to get the first part to -2. For the second, I know there were bonuses involved for the poor armor divisor and the whole "first attack must hit or this one doesn't work at all," but really I think it was just spitballed so it would be the same penalty on both rolls.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:36 PM   #59
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

I should think the first priority would be to disrupt the vocal organs and the next to incapacitate him. Once you know that and have about as basic a knowledge of anatomy as a typical raider has you have an idea what to do. The chief part of the project is getting up to him in the first place not striking the blow. It is not a contest of martial arts technique in the normally thought of sense.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:14 PM   #60
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Default Re: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentlemen)

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Knife damage is pretty pathetic and a lot of the time it will be low ST users.
Agreed on the first, but the second indicates you're doing something wrong. While not strongmen, the slim fantasy rogues are almost invariably quite strong for their size, at least when it comes to scaling walls and cutting throats. There's a reason DF gives them the option of buying up Striking ST (Sneak Attacks Only).

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Maybe even doing defensive attack for further damage penalty so you can avoid the sentry's attempt to escape from the grapple tolet out a dying gasp?
I would not allow the defense bonus for Defensive Attack count toward defending against a Break Free attempt, as that makes no sense whatsoever. A Defensive Attack grapple is easier to avoid by default (+1 to defense), or if using Technical Grappling (the only place where Break Free involves a defense roll) is meant to be easier to break out of, as it inflicts reduced CP.

Against a foe without neck armor, provided you're willing to use my Draw Cut houserule, the way you'd do it with TG would probably be a Telegraphic All Out (Determined) Knife Grapple to the Neck (net +5) to establish the grapple. For those with higher skill, (Strong) would be a good option, and even failing that Extra Effort (Mighty Blows) wouldn't be entirely out of place. With Trained ST 13, 1d+1 averages 4.5, but using Strong or Mighty Blows boosts that to 2d-1 and an average of 6. That's going to result in an average of 6 points of cutting injury (you deal 1/2 of the CP inflicted in damage, and cutting damage to the neck has a x2 multiplier) - against an average person, the character inflicts a Major Wound on average just from establishing the grapple, and even against an above-average foe he's not far off. Following this is an All Out (Strong) Draw Cut the following round (foe is almost certainly Mentally Stunned, and thus can't act), at a net +4 to hit and dealing somewhere around 1d+1 damage (for Striking ST 11 or 12 and a Good knife; higher ST and/or a better weapon means more damage), for an average of 9 Injury. If he's confident in his grappling skills, I'd allow him to burn CP to boost damage, which can get nasty quickly (1 CP traded in for 1 damage and thus 2 injury). In theory the character could instead trade some CP for the throat slit to target the veins/arteries instead of just the Neck!
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