05-10-2016, 09:03 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Handling Long-Range Musketry
This is a spin-off from the What kinds of firearms would people start making [After the End]? thread, wherein there was some debate over how accurate smoothbore muzzleloaders should be, with a nod toward their strange exterior ballistics (namely, that they have a bad habit of deviating from their aimpoint more rapidly than standard GURPS Range rules suggest - this is due to a combination of factors, from not being a perfectly-smooth sphere to changes in trajectory due to spin).
Based on the numbers from a Master's thesis linked in that thread, I think I have an idea of how to handle this in GURPS. In that, at some point between 50 yards (-8 to hit) and 80 yards (-10 to hit), the projectiles picked up somewhere between -3 and +2 to skill, with an average of -0.111 (I approximated this using 1d-4). Beyond this, there was something like a further -1 to hit at each -1 from Range, for a total of -2 per point of Range. The shots only went out to about 170 yards, however. Still, from this, a bit of a pattern emerges. A low resolution solution is to double all Range penalties beyond 70 yards, so that a musket sees range penalties as (...-7, -8, -9, -11, -13, -15, -17...). A bit higher resolution option would be to replace the first -1 with 1d-4, and you could possibly push the range back a step, with (1d/2)-2 beyond 50 yards, rounding normally (so you'd be between -1 and +1 to hit). A much higher resolution option would be to do something like (1d/2)-2, 1d-4, 1d-5, 1d-6, 2d-10, 2d-11, 2d-12, 3d-16, and so forth (although I'd replace each nd with 1dxn, so that you don't get a tighter spread with each added die). The range at which this starts to come into play is going to vary. The above is perhaps appropriate for an Acc 2 weapon (not certain how good the weapon used in the testing was). Each +1 to Acc from being Fine (Accurate), opting for Careful Loading, and so forth, is +1 SSR to the range beyond which the above effect comes into play. Higher-quality ammunition may also be available - while typically below GURPS resolution, such ammunition is double cost but is +2 SSR to the above range (and this does stack with Accuracy modifiers). Each -1 to Acc from being Cheap, black powder fouling, and so forth, is -1 SSR to the above range. Using field-expedient projectiles drops the range due to Acc penalties and gives a further -2 SSR to the range. Do keep in mind that, with the sorts of penalties the character is already going to be suffering for Range (by default, the above rules kick in at 100 yards, or 70 if using (1d/2)-2, which correspond to penalties of -10 and -9, respectively; a base Acc 1 pistol firing field-expedient projectiles is about the worst situation possible, and even it doesn't see an effect until it's at -7 or -6 from Range), the above typically isn't going to make much difference, and can probably be safely ignored in most campaigns. If a musketeer sniper harms your Sense of Disbelief, however, the above is a way to handle that. If using Tactical Shooting, note that the above modifiers come into play after the MoA-based skill cap. Last edited by Varyon; 05-10-2016 at 01:52 PM. |
05-10-2016, 01:18 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
I was looking at HT and was surprised to see that the Brown Bess is ACC 2, whilst the Baker rifle is only 1 better at ACC 3. Given the fact that the Baker was the sniping weapon of it's era this seems a bit poor.
I presume all the listed ACC mods are in some supplement that I don't have. Can you cite the books they appear in so I can hunt them down. I did refresh my memory of ranged combat and it was is somewhat different to how I remember it. The I realised I was still thinking in terms of 3rd edition. It seems to me you could hand wave all this away by simply lowering the base ACC for smoothbores. The indication is that they were not aimed (very few munition weapons have any sort of sight) but simply pointed. What if we are looking at this the wrong way. Not that they were inaccurate because they were not aimed, but that because they were inaccurate aiming provided no advantage. There were exceptions and some guns had tube sights etc. but these could be the FINE guns you mention. By carefully controlling the powder, selecting a good ball and loading carefully to avoid distorting it you could achieve fair results. ACC 2 allows you to shoot at +4 after two seconds aiming. Do those ACC modifying rules allow you to exceed the normal 2x base ACC rule? If not you would be better just aiming a bit (and 2 seconds isn't that long if you can only fire every half minute or so). If you lower the ACC of the musket to 1, you can at most add another 1. ACC 2 makes hits at 50 and 100 yards hard, but not impossible, but it quickly shifts the 150+ range shots into the miraculous. I also note in the 3rd edition Wild West that shotguns had a maximum range of 150 yards. That would be another way to handle it. Unfortunately in the same book the Indian musket has a range of almost a mile and a half. How? By using it like a howitzer?. I don't think these wacky numbers are confined to 3rd edition products. Last edited by swordtart; 05-10-2016 at 01:23 PM. |
05-10-2016, 02:10 PM | #3 | |||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
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*I erroneously had this as Reliable above; it's been changed, now. Quote:
I'll also mention something that someone else brought up in the other thread - one good reason not to train your soldiers to aim in formation fighting is that if they opt to Aim, they're likely to do so at the target(s) that stand out the most, which will mean many of your soldiers will be aiming at the same guy, which prevents you from properly spreading out the destruction (better to hit 3 guys with 1 bullet each than 1 guy with 3 bullets...). Quote:
I'd want to get some more concrete numbers on what sort of MoA muskets see before I did this. Granted, a musket that lacks any sort of proper sights should probably have -1 to Acc. |
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05-10-2016, 02:47 PM | #4 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
There was a thread relating to the 2xAcc cap recently...I'm pretty sure the conclusion was that it applied to aiming aids but not to the +2 for extra seconds of aim. (That is, an unmodified Acc 0 weapon's aim bonuses go 0, +1, +2 for 1-3 seconds.)
I can't find a Cheap option either, but GURPS authors occasionally think there is one... Quote:
The problem with this, of course, is that there are lots of weapons with no sights and non-zero Acc values throughout the books...
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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05-10-2016, 02:55 PM | #5 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
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__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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05-10-2016, 03:09 PM | #6 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
One question to ask would be whether the rules for musket accuracy are any worse a fit than for the performance of stones, arrows, or .50 BMG rounds. GURPS rules try to be in the right ballpark while being simple enough for ordinary people to use after a long day at work and without spending more time and book money than GURPS players are willing to pay for.
High Tech p. 10 does say that the cheap modifier printed on that page is not available for firearms, but the cheap/good/fine options were created to describe edged weapons, and examples of cheap firearms (and effects of cheap quality, such as dangers using Extra-Powerful Ammunition HT p. 165) are scattered throughout High Tech. My copy of the basic set is in the old country, but a simple way to read this would be that cheap firearms have idiosyncratic costs and disadvantages, such as reduced Malf, rather than stats which can be generated by algorithm from a base entry.
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 05-10-2016 at 03:17 PM. |
05-10-2016, 03:22 PM | #7 |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
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05-10-2016, 03:41 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
The GURPS range rules in general are more of a gameable hybrid than anything resembling modeling of real world performance; firing under controlled conditions is much more reliable and has much faster performance dropoff than the rules in GURPS. This is, most likely, because your skill in GURPS includes effects other than "did you aim in the right place" -- when someone misses at 2 yards, that's not because of the accuracy of their weapon.
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05-11-2016, 12:23 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
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I also quite liked systems that recognise that different weapons/set ups are best suited for different ranges (i.e not just a bonus to all shots which you apply to all ranges) Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-11-2016 at 02:54 AM. |
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05-11-2016, 12:39 AM | #10 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Handling Long-Range Musketry
When as a teenager I plugged some of those 19th century musket tests against fixed targets into the GURPS model, I had no problem reproducing them with reasonable skill levels. YMMV.
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I have never had a game session be less fun because a weapon performed slightly differently than it probably would in the real world, if the real world had magic, demons, and Gunslinger. Sometimes we shrugged and said "that is not not we think it works, but changing the rules would be too much work and might not be any better, so lets do what they say and get on with the adventure."
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 05-11-2016 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Fixed typo |
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Tags |
high tech, musketry, realism, tactical shooting |
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