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Old 02-19-2016, 06:36 AM   #21
Gnome
 
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

Why not go full DnD and split Intelligence from Wisdom and Charisma?

They should probably each cost 15 points. Wisdom would include the current Per and Will stats. A few skills that are currently IQ-based can be changed to Wisdom-based, but the GM can often float checks between all three "IQ" stats. Charisma would include a level of Charisma (the advantage) but without the skill bonuses (i.e. +1 reaction per level), and would be the base stat for a bunch more skills.

I like this idea for DF actually. Though Clerics have a more limited spell list than Wizards, they can use Wisdom to determine spell levels, which comes with Will and Per baked in. Wizards meanwhile get more of a monopoly on "knowledge" skills, but neither can match Bards in the social realm.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:08 AM   #22
simply Nathan
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Why not go full DnD and split Intelligence from Wisdom and Charisma?
I don't like it there and I don't want it here. I would like IQ 10/level and accept IQ 15/level, prefer Per 5/level but could see a case for 10/level, and Will would be fine at 10/level if more spells used it as a base instead of IQ.

20/level for the whole package is already expensive, particularly for DF-like games.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

If you have issues with the way IQ is portrayed, why not just remove Perception and Will from its influence (having the characters purchase them from a base of 10) and price it at +/- 10 CP per level? Of course, that means that the some of the Talents will be as expensive or more expensive than IQ, so I would suggest banning any Talent that costs more than 5 CP/level.

Concerning the idea of a Charisma attribute, why on Earth would you want to play in a GURPS game with more expensive Charisma? Without being absurd, you can purchase the advantages of Appearance (Beautiful/Handsome) [12], Charisma 5 [25], Classical Appearance [1], Photogenic 1 [1], and Voice [10] to gain a potential +15 (!) to reaction rolls (plus the appropriate skill bonuses) under the appropriate circumstance (with 'only' +9/+11 under most circumstances) for 49 CP, a point less than a Charisma Attribute of '15'.
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Old 02-19-2016, 04:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
Perception and Will are already able to be modified separately from IQ. I don't see an advantage to "intuitive IQ" separated from "logical IQ". If I remember the description of IQ in GURPS, it is supposed to be a catch all mental attribute that represents intelligence, experience, wit, and serves as a base for Perception and Will.
And yet Strength (control over muscles) is treated as separate from Dexterity (control over muscles) which is also separate from Health (bodily strength). There's lots of separation for physical attributes, making an "I hit things!" warrior require quite a bit of investment while an "I make eldritch forces do whatever I want" mage requires IQ.

As to the division of mind, the purpose is to give it a little of the same treatment that physical stats already get: intuition could be thought of as a "mental dexterity", while logic could be thought of as a "mental strength".

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The split between skills...handled with a Talent.
I don't think you understand the concept, I'm not talking about giving a bonus, I'm talking about certain skills being controlled by one division of IQ than another.

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they just seem to do well with making those choices.
It sounds like you're referring to luck rather than a consistent, systematic application of ability (which is my general understanding of skills, especially as they are presented in GURPS).

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
if you look at the utility of those skills if the Intuition isn't by far the most common in adventure templates and PC builds and the Logic skill more of a niché branch of the "book smarts"? Like scientist.
Computer Operation, First Aid, and Mathematics would likely be based on a Logic attribute. Observation, Diplomacy, and Music would be based on an Intuition attribute.

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Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Log ST at 20/level (+1 thrust per level)
DX at 20/level
IQ! at 20/level
HT(includes Per+Will) at 20/level
I think this just emphasizes how oversimplified mental aspects could be treated (though I do agree that splitting Perception and Will into their own attributes not controlled by IQ could handle many of these things). Almost all of the main attributes here are physical, even though realistic handling would see overlap. If we're going to say "but those things are mental aspects", why not combine Health and Strength as simply Nathan's "Body" attribute references?

I'm away from books and notes right now, so this is all I can think of, but there are quite a few interesting responses on the thought experiment.
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Old 02-19-2016, 05:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

Strength is physical integrity, Dexterity is physical control, and Health is physical stamina. In 3e, Strength and Health were more related, but it is better in 4e.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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The Logic/Willpower thing makes even less sense.
Yeah, plenty of animals can have high Willpower, but I wouldn't say they have high Logic.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:08 PM   #27
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The example you proposed is accounted by DX, not IQ, and animals have DX good as human (and often in game stats animals has better, despite humans having motori capacity good as any animal).

The argument proposed seems to me like: animals have behaviours highly specialized for the environment challenges their specie faces, so they are intelligent. But intelligence is not a measure of stereotypical behaviours tailored by environmental adaptation, and there's no point in a game score measuring it.
I think it's anthrocentric to assume our specific form(s) of intelligence(s) is/are unlimited in scope and all other species' are mere echoes.

Dx is used to make one's way through the course, not to determine the methods and best path to finish it quickly and efficiently.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Some RPG systems do use Intuition and Perception for the same. D&D 3rd Edition. I think Shadowrun might too. It doesn't make sense to me, but it's not without precedent. The Logic/Willpower thing makes even less sense.
True. Games have to make concessions to playability and shove all round polygons through the circular hole so to speak.

It kind of reminds me of lists of four objects asking which one is different. In nearly every case, while culturally one seems most obvious, cases can be made for each of the remaining three being the odd one out.
It's a reason for why IQ tests are inherently flawed. Even the questions say more about the questioner than the problem or solver.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:18 PM   #29
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Yeah, plenty of animals can have high Willpower, but I wouldn't say they have high Logic.
I have to say in all seriousness, most humans have pretty poor logic. Basic rote behavior and memory of taught rules make up for more than I think most realize. I'm including myself here.
Even in slightly novel situations where my supposedly higher than average human intelligence should make short work of problems I will flounder badly.
(This is even before my anxiety condition flares up.)

We've all heard of the dog and cats that ran into burning buildings to rescue their babies. If that isn't stupidly high willpower, then nothing is.
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:27 AM   #30
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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We've all heard of the dog and cats that ran into burning buildings to rescue their babies. If that isn't stupidly high willpower, then nothing is.
In a documentary, I've seen a female gnu facing female lions to save her baby. And the gnu won!

She didn't really have to fight because the lions abandoned the combat: while the gnu was turning around her baby, clearly threatening each lion with her horns, the lions immediately understood that she was ready to fight to death and that several of them will surely be severely wounded...

That's obviously a very high will!

Once can object that it is maternal instinct. But a question here: can't our decisions be interpreted as instinct or unconscious drive too?

If intelligence is defined as adaptation, a lot of animals suddenly put in a totally new wild environment will have more chance to survive than I do.

Animals are much more will-full and intelligent that we usually think.

There are several kind of intelligence.

http://skyview.vansd.org/lschmidt/Pr...telligence.htm

I may have a much better logical-mathematical intelligence than my cat. But he surely has a much better bodily-kinesthetic and a much better spatial intelligence than me.
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