Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-09-2012, 04:02 PM   #1
Dammann
 
Dammann's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Default [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

I want to start a new campaign soon using Dungeon fantasy. It is so well supported, and after trying out a science fiction campaign, I am eager to do something a little lighter (with less homework involved).

OTOH, I like GURPS, so I (predictably) like to customize my campaigns.

I want to use Divine Favor for clerical magic. I love the flexibility, and I want there to be a huge difference between what Wizards do and what Clerics and Holy Warriors do.

I want to use Threshold Magic, from Thaumatology, for Wizards (and probably Summoners). I like the idea that magic is risky, as opposed to tiring. I want magic users to be outlaws or pariahs, like thieves, in part to make enchanted implements very rare.

I will also include Justiciars, Demolishers, and Mystic Knights, along with all the templates from the DF series proper. I am also fine with players building PCs w/o a template, even though I think it is reckless and likely to end in spectacular frustration (due as much to my own limits as the lack of well thought out guidance).

My hastily sketched out background is an east-meets-west fantasy kingdom surrounded by wilderness and monsters, with a feeling like Japan under the Shogun's peace.

I don't have much experience with Imbuements or Magic under 4e. The last campaign I ran that was fantasy oriented was in the early 90s. I didn't do anything RPG-related from the late 90s until last year. I am studying up, and I feel good about my understanding of ranged combat.

I am starting this thread to ask for advice, warnings, and helpful anecdotes. I am most interested in wisdom from the forum regarding using these specific templates, Threshold Magic or other alternate magic rules, your thoughts on the affects of Threshold Magic on enchantment, Divine Power (specifically balancing it against Holy Abilities), and Imbuements. I have been resistant to the idea of Imbuements in the past, but I want to cultivate a more sophisticated palate (yeah, via DF, I know). I also would welcome advice and ideas on how to handle Druid magic, which I'd like to have operate differently from Wizard or Clerical abilities. I am also interested in thoughts on the setting, to a much lesser-but-not-zero degree. Specifically, is there any pitfall associated with making Wizards criminals? It seems like that is beyond the resolution of Dungeon Fantasy, but are there play balance issues that would require some degree of attention? Thieves don't get any special disadvantage from being outlaws, but perhaps this is different?
Dammann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 04:57 PM   #2
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

How about buiilding your Druids using Shamanism?
Spirit mediated magic in Thaumatology, or symbol magic with perhaps the Tree alphabet.

As for Wizards it depends on how illegal and why.
If critical failures are a problem then perhaps it is illegal for them to practice magic inside a city or town.
That will make a good reason for them to live in towers or hamlets outside town.
Cut down on magic items as they wont have access to very many helpers except in rare cases.
But it will be legal for them to come to town without hiding.
If its illegal for them to be Wizards then they have to act the part of another class or role and it will get tougher to meet people, learn and even go on adventures.

Last edited by Refplace; 05-09-2012 at 05:04 PM.
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 05:06 PM   #3
DemiBenson
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Boston, Hub of the Universe!
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

I did a DF campaign with Threshold Magic. It worked great!

The swashbuckler/fire-mage usually saved up his magic and just used his sword, but in desperate straits he could let loose. It also gave him the ability to use magic in very creative solutions, in ways that I think regular magic would not be able to do. e.g. "So the monkey-demons all nest in this giant tree and we can't hit them, but they can hit us. Can I cast Body of Fire on the tree?"

The priest also had Threshold Magic, but was constantly running over the threshold and getting himself in some trouble or other. But because there was always more energy available, the game never turned into a fight-heal-rest-repeat cycle like D&D used to.
__________________
Demi Benson
DemiBenson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 05:51 PM   #4
Dammann
 
Dammann's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiBenson View Post
I did a DF campaign with Threshold Magic. It worked great!
[snip]
That is encouraging to hear! I like that two characters with Threshold Magic responded to it so differently. I hope that a Wizard character will be able to be as adroit as your Swashbuckler-Wizard. I worry that using Threshold and legal constraints might be too limiting to a Wizard. Threshold is probably more fun to play with when someone is pushing the envelope, too, so good on that cleric's player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
How about buiilding your Druids using Shamanism?
Spirit mediated magic in Thaumatology, or symbol magic with perhaps the Tree alphabet.
I will read up on Spirit Mediated- and Symbol- in Thaumatology; I haven't used any Magic systems in a long time, so I have a LOT of catching up to do. Knowing nothing of them, "Tree alphabet" does sound right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
As for Wizards it depends on how illegal and why.
If critical failures are a problem then perhaps it is illegal for them to practice magic inside a city or town.
That will make a good reason for them to live in towers or hamlets outside town.
Cut down on magic items as they wont have access to very many helpers except in rare cases.
My thinking is that the king is a powerful magic user, and he has a combination of risk aversion and understanding of magic and its dangers. He used magic to help him conquer a kingdom, but the consequences of his magic use sometimes terrified him. I want a sort of sympathetic autocrat, trying to make everyone safe by instituting a more mundane culture. I see him as a visionary who is more comfortable with suppression than trusting other people; kind of a proto-nanny-statesman? I am probably overthinking the background of "go into the hole and kill stuff until it drops loot," but there it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
But it will be legal for them to come to town without hiding.
If its illegal for them to be Wizards then they have to act the part of another class or role and it will get tougher to meet people, learn and even go on adventures.
My casual thinking so far has been that Wizards with a positive power tally (that is, they have used magic recently enough to have game effects) will be immediately obvious to those with at least Magery 0; a Wizard could go anywhere in the kingdom without being harassed as long as he isn't using magic.

Also, I intend to have this Wizard-King figure relatively recently in power (say the last 20-40 years), so that his vision is only being embraced gradually, first by his own loyalist forces, then by the church, then by the nobility, with the more conservative peasantry lagging far behind. So my King has a strong enforcement arm in his own army (led by Justiciars), support from the pulpit (pleased to be rid of niche competition from Wizards), and grudging support from nobles (who miss having their own court Wizards, but recognize a hopeless fight), while peasants might be willing to aid and conceal a Wizard (in hopes of a return to the good old days).

Some character Templates in this framework would be pretty hard to work with; a Wizard will not be sure to be safe around a Cleric, Holy Warrior, or especially a Justiciar. They might have personal relationships with any single of these, but there is a source of tension or even conflict. Thieves on the other hand, become natural allies to Wizards, and Knights, Scouts, and Druids will have no default attitude. Barbarians I regard as outsiders, with equal disdain for magic and law. Mystic Warriors would be almost as wanted as Wizards. Bards will need to be careful about using their limited magic access, but I see them as simply presenting their music and using social engineering to keep themselves safe.

I guess I want to leave hints lying around that everyone has been divided so that they can be ruled, in case this DF campaign goes on for a long time. I could see disparate characters joining forces to resist the government and even toppling the King. If it doesn't last as long, well, the tension will be mitigated by my players' instinct for teamwork (I hope).
Dammann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 05:56 PM   #5
Dammann
 
Dammann's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Maybe it would be better to cut Wizards some slack, and let them go undetected as long as their power tally doesn't exceed their personal threshold?

Maybe I should let Bards use the basic, fatigue based magic system, so that they are less at risk? It might offset their "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" status. I see a role for social engineers in fantasy, but I don't know how compelling that might be to my players.
Dammann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 05:57 PM   #6
Qhaysh
 
Qhaysh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: alocal
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammann View Post
I want to use Threshold Magic, from Thaumatology, for Wizards (and probably Summoners). I like the idea that magic is risky, as opposed to tiring. I want magic users to be outlaws or pariahs, like thieves, in part to make enchanted implements very rare.
There are some guidelines, somewhere, on how to use the LC (Legality Class) system with spells. Necromancy, for example, is considered LC 0...
Qhaysh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 06:13 PM   #7
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammann View Post
Maybe it would be better to cut Wizards some slack, and let them go undetected as long as their power tally doesn't exceed their personal threshold?

Maybe I should let Bards use the basic, fatigue based magic system, so that they are less at risk? It might offset their "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" status. I see a role for social engineers in fantasy, but I don't know how compelling that might be to my players.
Bards are typically socially protected adn in any case if you have them with the same problems as Wizards it weakens them probably even more then it does Wizards.
I like Bards using FP magic and Raise Cone of Power from Thaumatology p52 giving them strong ceremonial power and a strong reason for peasants to want them around.
Maybe change the prequisites.


As for Wizards if there not arrested on sight but just when in town and over thier personal limit or even if it shows cast any spells then that limits them but lets them be very playable.
Interesting play options too. "No I cant go to town for 3 days or so, still cleansing the results of that spell I used to kill the orcs."
I would like ot try a game like that, sounds interesting.
As for Threshold Magery I used it in several games back when it first came out and I found most were careful and horded magic. Though some tried mana bombing hostile territory.
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 07:04 PM   #8
RobKamm
 
RobKamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

I've used variations on Threshold Magic in a couple of games including my current DF game.

In a 3e game I did straight TM and it worked well.

In my current game I use standard magic. Wizards can, however, access mana directly (using TH) with 0 Threshold and a very low starting recovery rate. In other words, most of the time they use magic normally, but when they need to cut loose with something spectacular they can. Just with a good chance of badness happening.

They've actually used that option. Twice.
RobKamm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #9
Dammann
 
Dammann's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qhaysh View Post
There are some guidelines, somewhere, on how to use the LC (Legality Class) system with spells. Necromancy, for example, is considered LC 0...
That actually makes really good sense. I am planning to keep it simple, though, with all Wizardry basically being LC0. Those guidelines would make a lot of sense in a fantasy society where there isn't a well intending fascist in charge.

Anybody know where these guidelines are? I want to read them before I start this campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Raise Cone of Power from Thaumatology p52
Raise Cone of Power seems so perfect for Bards! I appreciate all this advice!

One question, though; could a bunch of Bards potentially do some low power enchanting with this sort of thing? I don't completely object to that, just wondering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
As for Threshold Magery I used it in several games back when it first came out and I found most were careful and horded magic. Though some tried mana bombing hostile territory.
I worry that it will make Wizards hard to play. They are "defined by their spell list" and all, and if they don't actually get reckless enough to use spells sometimes... I just hope my Wizards don't get nerfed by player anxiety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobKamm View Post
[snip]
In my current game I use standard magic. Wizards can, however, access mana directly (using TH) with 0 Threshold and a very low starting recovery rate. In other words, most of the time they use magic normally, but when they need to cut loose with something spectacular they can. Just with a good chance of badness happening.

They've actually used that option. Twice.
I hope my players are as gutsy as yours. Using it as an optional (desperate) approach is a cool mechanic.
Dammann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 07:44 PM   #10
Qhaysh
 
Qhaysh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: alocal
Default Re: [DF, Thaumatology, Powers: Divine Favor] Threshold Magic in Dungeon Fantasy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammann View Post
That actually makes really good sense. I am planning to keep it simple, though, with all Wizardry basically being LC0. Those guidelines would make a lot of sense in a fantasy society where there isn't a well intending fascist in charge.

Anybody know where these guidelines are? I want to read them before I start this campaign.
Fantasy, p71. There's a topic discussing those guidelines here. The first post gives you the essentials.
Qhaysh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
divine favor, dungeon fantasy, magic, thaumatology, threshold limited magery

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.