[MH] Weapon Master for non-warriors

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Bruno

My gaming group is heavily slanted towards specialists. I swear some of them break out in hives when you whisper the word "versatile" - I'm not quite that bad myself, in that I have a sort of artistic appreciation for versatility, but I can sink into really narrow niches when left unsupervised.

My group ius the exact opposite. "Wait, what if we loose our ranged specialist, I better pick up some points in Bow" ~ said simultaneously by three players during a pre-game session.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think Monster Hunters is one of the better genres to push a versatile approach to melee weapons, but it takes a bit of conscious effort by the GM. Demons are the easiest vehicle for requiring it as they're highly variable; if one demon can only be slain by a wrought-iron spear to the heart, and another if beheaded with a "blooded" executioners axe, and a third can be killed with a steel sword (of any design) but only with a steel sword and only when neither inside nor outside, neither on the ground or in the water, and neither during the day or during the night, you immediately need three weapons, one of which may never be able to be consecrated as a Holy weapon (I'd definitely be pretty dubious about the executioners ax becoming holy) which further limits its use against other enemies. You'd want at least a fourth weapon made of silver (for werewolves), never mind other basically-one-trick badguys who might need other weapon designs.

VERY. VERY good advice. I think that sums it up better than I ever could.

Originally Posted by Bruno

But the GM has to push this. It can't just be a variety of materials, or players will pick one weapon type to specialize in, skip Weapon Bond, but still carry a golf-club bag filled with different flavors of otherwise-identical longswords (for example).

"Hey Lou, hand me the long-nine with Mayan blood sigils, no no the Ch'olan not the Mamean, see that little squiggly there, that means its another language-dialect"

Ghostdancer

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Bruno

But the GM has to push this. It can't just be a variety of materials, or players will pick one weapon type to specialize in, skip Weapon Bond, but still carry a golf-club bag filled with different flavors of otherwise-identical longswords (for example).

And you can not do this by damage type, because an axe with a spear point and a hammerhead in the back will deal all 3 damage types.

Again, what I don't want, is to render the warrior obsolete (as in, the Crusader does whatever the warrior does, only better). The warrior, apparently, has two main shticks, Blade! and Weapon Master. if I'm offering Weapon Master to the Crusader for 9 points, then it must means that Blade! is awesome enough to make the Warrior good enough.

Don't get me wrong, I like Wildcards. It's only Blade! and Guns! that I feel that they might need something more, and then, those who get guns get gunslinger, and those who get Blade get Weapon Master. My issue with Blade! and Guns! is that a) you usually only need 1-2 melee weapon skills, and 1 ranged weapon skill, and defaults can serve to fill the gaps.

BTW, as a GM, the main benefit of wildcards, is that you don't end up with someone with let's say, Staff-16/Parry-11 (the caster), and someone with dual edged rapiers, Rapier-26, feint (Rapier)-30, Dual Weapon Attack (Rapier)-26, and 2xparries-19F, with weapon master to further reduce multiple parry penalties.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

And you can not do this by damage type, because an axe with a spear point and a hammerhead in the back will deal all 3 damage types.

Definitely. The wrought iron spear has to be a spear, not "something with a spike on top". Heck, you could specify a lance, or a belly spear or something, but I'd prefer to leave it a little more generic so (frex) in an emergency a Warrior can substitute a spike from a wrought iron fence as an Improvised Weapon.

Well, in that specific case anyways; in other cases a lance might be more appropriate - a dragon-themed demon, fought near a statue to St. George where the PCs might possibly arrange to have the demon impaled on the statue's lance would be pretty cool.

Though - some materials will require exotic weapon types - obsidian is really only useful for a spear point or on a macuahuitl (which is REALLY hard to spell check), and sharks teeth necessitates cheap arrows, very bad spears, or the pacific-island version of the same cricket-bat-of-death design.

Scythes are symbolism laden and another way to shake a sword-obsessed Blade! user out of his niche. Same with sickles - both gold and silver get mentioned in ritual contexts with druids sickles harvesting holly ritually (how authentically I have no idea, but who cares about authenticity for a demon?)

And of course the entire suite of interesting knife-type weapons forces Blade! users into smaller weapons and closer ranges, for more difficult kills.

Sorry, this seems to have been threadjacked into brainstorming demon weaknesses.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Again, what I don't want, is to render the warrior obsolete (as in, the Crusader does whatever the warrior does, only better). The warrior, apparently, has two main shticks, Blade! and Weapon Master. if I'm offering Weapon Master to the Crusader for 9 points, then it must means that Blade! is awesome enough to make the Warrior good enough.

Weapon Master (All) means the Crusader gets a good default for that suite of spear-axe-sword-scythe-sickle mentioned above, but it's still only at DX and means you don't have the damage bonus. Blade! means the warrior handles them all well, and unlike the Crusader, the warrior is a Weapon Master all the time, and always has the skill and always gets the damage bonus - which is where the "only 9 points" comes in for the Crusader.

So I guess the other half is: make sure that the rest of the divine abilities look like they'll be as useful in any given fight, and that at times the Crusader should really wish they could do two schticks at once. Otherwise they're basically getting free points.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Is Blade! good enough that other templates can get Weapon Master without rendering the warrior obsolete?

IMO, it wouldn't render the warrior "obsolete," but it'd be serious niche invasion. I gave the warrior Blade! as a wildcard skill for a few different reasons, but the important ones were "versatility" and "wildcard bonus points." Those are both good, but the real reason Blade! rocks is that it synergizes with Weapon Master for every single weapon with an edge -- and Weapon Master is the best part of the combo.

Of course, if you don't have a warrior in the group, it's not much of an issue. And since your crusader will have to use much of his 85 Divine Favor points to get this combo (I figure Divine Favor 8 [45] + the prayer that gives him Weapon Master [9], which only leaves 31 points left over for other prayers and PI!) and will really need to beef up his ST and weapon skills to get full use out of it, it's more like you're building a "cross-class crusader/warrior" anyway.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

My issue with Blade! and Guns! is that a) you usually only need 1-2 melee weapon skills, and 1 ranged weapon skill, and defaults can serve to fill the gaps.

And you can absolutely buy those skills separately . . . if you want to spend more points to build a less effective warrior.

It seems to go unnoticed that Blade! is more than a weapon skill. The description on p. 29 is three paragraphs long, and only one is about the Melee Weapon skills it replaces. More to the point, to build a warrior with 1-2 melee weapon skills and capabilities that were even close to this:

Blade! DX+2 [48]

Total Cost: 48 points

...you'd need to give him the following. (And note that I'm trying to be realistic, by giving him lower relative skill levels for some things, and not even trying to cover the entire gamut of what the guy above can do. Just making it comparable. Note that weapon skills must remain at DX+2 for the damage bonus, though! And Acrobatics needs to stay high, as it's a literal life-saver -- a warrior who doesn't Acrobatic Dodge is a fool.)

Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8] (just to pick one -- must be at DX+2 for WM damage bonus)
Axe/Mace (A) DX+2 [8] (again, just to pick one -- same as above)
Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4] (also at DX+2 for the extra damage bonus -- plus it's cheap)
Acrobatics (H) DX+2 [12]
Fast-Draw (Sword) (E) DX+2 [2] (includes Combat Reflexes bonus)
Holdout (A) IQ+2 [8]
Two of Climbing, Dropping, or Throwing, all DX+1 [4]; Armoury (Melee Weapons), Connoisseur (Melee Weapons), Merchant, or Streetwise, all IQ+1 [4]; Intimidation (A) IQ+1 [4]; Observation or Search, both Per+1 [4]; or take four of these at -1 to skill each.

Total Cost: 50 points

The second warrior can do a fraction of what the first can (though to be fair, the fraction is large -- I'd say about 3/4 or so), and pays more for the privilege. He also doesn't get the sweet, sweet bonus points.

When reading MH1, please don't skip Chapter 2 -- particularly the section on wildcard skills. Reading Blade! as "a skill that replaces some Melee Weapon skills" is like thinking of a personal computer as "a device on which I can play games." Sure, that's part of what it's good for, but hardly all!

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Weapon Master (All) means the Crusader gets a good default for that suite of spear-axe-sword-scythe-sickle mentioned above, but it's still only at DX and means you don't have the damage bonus. Blade! means the warrior handles them all well, and unlike the Crusader, the warrior is a Weapon Master all the time, and always has the skill and always gets the damage bonus - which is where the "only 9 points" comes in for the Crusader.

So I guess the other half is: make sure that the rest of the divine abilities look like they'll be as useful in any given fight, and that at times the Crusader should really wish they could do two schticks at once. Otherwise they're basically getting free points.

Well, Weapon master (All) [9] will be incompatible with Blessed (Heroic Feats, +2d to ST, DX and HT) [11], and Blessed (Ghost Weapon) [3], all very neat in combat ;)

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

IMO, it wouldn't render the warrior "obsolete," but it'd be serious niche invasion. I gave the warrior Blade! as a wildcard skill for a few different reasons, but the important ones were "versatility" and "wildcard bonus points." Those are both good, but the real reason Blade! rocks is that it synergizes with Weapon Master for every single weapon with an edge -- and Weapon Master is the best part of the combo.

Of course, if you don't have a warrior in the group, it's not much of an issue. And since your crusader will have to use much of his 85 Divine Favor points to get this combo (I figure Divine Favor 8 [45] + the prayer that gives him Weapon Master [9], which only leaves 31 points left over for other prayers and PI!) and will really need to beef up his ST and weapon skills to get full use out of it, it's more like you're building a "cross-class crusader/warrior" anyway.

That's what I figured. I'm the GM, I'm not building the character. The player is building the character, and asking for clarifications. It would seriously invade the niche of the warrior. I don't have a warrior in the game, but I've got a player known for changing characters every 4-5 sessions, and I don't want to make Warriors a non-choice. What I'm going to do, is tell him that he can not take it at character creation. It will be available as a specific prayer, and once he successfully requests it 3-4 times, he will get the chance to purchase it. He's not devoting points to extra ST, so it will be less effective with Weapon Master than with some of the alternatives

And you can absolutely buy those skills separately . . . if you want to spend more points to build a less effective warrior.

It seems to go unnoticed that Blade! is more than a weapon skill. The description on p. 29 is three paragraphs long, and only one is about the Melee Weapon skills it replaces. More to the point, to build a warrior with 1-2 melee weapon skills and capabilities that were even close to this:

Blade! DX+2 [48]

Total Cost: 48 points

...you'd need to give him the following. (And note that I'm trying to be realistic, by giving him lower relative skill levels for some things, and not even trying to cover the entire gamut of what the guy above can do. Just making it comparable. Note that weapon skills must remain at DX+2 for the damage bonus, though! And Acrobatics needs to stay high, as it's a literal life-saver -- a warrior who doesn't Acrobatic Dodge is a fool.)

Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8] (just to pick one -- must be at DX+2 for WM damage bonus)
Axe/Mace (A) DX+2 [8] (again, just to pick one -- same as above)
Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4] (also at DX+2 for the extra damage bonus -- plus it's cheap)
Acrobatics (H) DX+2 [12]
Fast-Draw (Sword) (E) DX+2 [2] (includes Combat Reflexes bonus)
Holdout (A) IQ+2 [8]
Two of Climbing, Dropping, or Throwing, all DX+1 [4]; Armoury (Melee Weapons), Connoisseur (Melee Weapons), Merchant, or Streetwise, all IQ+1 [4]; Intimidation (A) IQ+1 [4]; Observation or Search, both Per+1 [4]; or take four of these at -1 to skill each.

Total Cost: 50 points

The second warrior can do a fraction of what the first can (though to be fair, the fraction is large -- I'd say about 3/4 or so), and pays more for the privilege. He also doesn't get the sweet, sweet bonus points.

When reading MH1, please don't skip Chapter 2 -- particularly the section on wildcard skills. Reading Blade! as "a skill that replaces some Melee Weapon skills" is like thinking of a personal computer as "a device on which I can play games." Sure, that's part of what it's good for, but hardly all!

Rev, I know, I've read it. To me, it seems borderline, compared to the other wildcards, and I have yet to see how it works at the table (best litmus test). The thing is, as I was telling ghostdancer over IRC, it's not the weapon skills that might make it worthwhile, it's the non-weapon skills.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Rev, I know, I've read it.

Sorry, Toni -- I wasn't trying to harp on you, honestly. I was more trying to make the point in general, for those reading the thread, because this isn't the first time I've seen someone compare "Blade!" to "a few Melee Weapon skills." I just don't want that meme spreading.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Sorry, Toni -- I wasn't trying to harp on you, honestly. I was more trying to make the point in general, for those reading the thread, because this isn't the first time I've seen someone compare "Blade!" to "a few Melee Weapon skills." I just don't want that meme spreading.

No problem, I'm a bit touchy lately.

BTW, will MH4, or any future MH book, include "cross template" lenses (or something similar? What if you're playing a 500 point game, and want to play a vampire warrior? or a half demon witch)?

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

BTW, will MH4, or any future MH book, include "cross template" lenses (or something similar? What if you're playing a 500 point game, and want to play a vampire warrior? or a half demon witch)?

Answer Hazy. Ask Again Later.

:)

[Tinman]

One thing the crusader wepon master will not be able to do is spend those wild card points.

Frex: if the warrior messes up on a parry he can spend one Blade! point to reduce the damage to 1pt.

Perhapse you could limit the weep mast for the crusader to only one wepon at a time.