Mixing Ritual Path Magic and Divine Favor... Can it be done?

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Late-breaking suggestion: instead of (or in addition to?) doubling the energy gains from "Meditation, Holiness, or Study", let Devotion reduce the time intervals needed to generate energy in this way.

How would you reduce the time intervals? Day, 12 hours, 6 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour, 30 minutes, 10 minutes? That would be going in reverse of the Duration for an RPM spell, and I thought that might be fitting. Or could you let it increase the amount you get instead. 1 times, 2 times, 3 times, 4 times, etc. So 25 energy, 50, energy, 75 energy, 100 energy, etc. Would there be a cap on how high you can buy it? I'm really liking this idea though.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

A few other changes I'd recommend:

• Switch the core skill from Thaumatology to Ritual Magic to represent familiarity with divinely-potent religious rituals.
• Allow the Devotion Talent (Fantasy and Power-Ups: Talents).
• I'd also allow Divine Favor to act as the "enabler advantage" that lets you perform RPM at no additional cost; but then, I'm of the opinion that GURPS focuses a little too heavily on the point accounting. Magery (RPM) caps the core skill based on its level, and provides you with an ER*; when using Divine Favor as the enabler, I'd use its rating as the cap: that is, Divine Favor 11- caps Ritual Magic at 11; Divine Favor 14- caps Ritual Magic at 14; and so on. I also wouldn't bother with an ER: have all of the energy come from "Devotional Enchantment". Possibly give a better exchange rate: IMHO, twice as fast as regular "devotional enchantment rates" would not be inappropriate. Let characters buy an initial reserve of "grace" at 50 energy points per character point (to match the doubled earning rate); but if there are any other sources of energy, they should be few and far between.
• The Path of Magic becomes the Path of the Divine. This is essentially a name change; but it's an important one: in this paradigm, this deals with Sanctity and holy items instead of mana and thaumic energy (or whatever RPM normally calls it).

* Incidentally, this is a perfect example of not getting bogged down in the minutiae: they do not attempt to figure out how many points the built-in ER "ought to" cost and then tack that on to the cost of Magery; nor do they mess with trying to discount Magery's cost due to it not giving you a bonus to your rituals, and n fact serving to cap them.

Can you pray for energy/help/whatever with this system that you've set up, or is the cap the ultimate cap? What if you really, really, really need your god to help you out in that moment? I guess what I'm getting at is... Does general/specific prayer still work for this? And if so, how so?

I really like these ideas, and I feel like it's all coming together for me. I like this Devotional Enchantment pool, but I need some prayer mixed in too. I feel like that's a big part of what Divine Favor is, and I'd like to keep that in the mix. What would you do about that? The same thing that Ghostdancer suggested? I just feel like his numbers are... Stagnant. Maybe prayer, if you went the route of Devotion talent increasing your reserve, would have your god give you a certain percent back. Neutral would be 10%, Good would be 25%, Very Good would be 50%, and Excellent would be 100%. This energy would not stick around. It can only be used for the ritual being cast.

Example: Stewart the Cleric of Silliness wants to cast a Create Fart ritual. He's already expended his entire reserve of 100 energy (from Devotion 4) so he prays to his God of Jokes. He receives a Good reaction so his god grants him 25 energy for his Create Fart ritual; enough to create the stinkiest of farts.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Raekai

I really like these ideas, and I feel like it's all coming together for me. I like this Devotional Enchantment pool, but I need some prayer mixed in too. I feel like that's a big part of what Divine Favor is, and I'd like to keep that in the mix. What would you do about that? The same thing that Ghostdancer suggested? I just feel like his numbers are... Stagnant. Maybe prayer, if you went the route of Devotion talent increasing your reserve, would have your god give you a certain percent back. Neutral would be 10%, Good would be 25%, Very Good would be 50%, and Excellent would be 100%. This energy would not stick around. It can only be used for the ritual being cast.

Example: Stewart the Cleric of Silliness wants to cast a Create Fart ritual. He's already expended his entire reserve of 100 energy (from Devotion 4) so he prays to his God of Jokes. He receives a Good reaction so his god grants him 25 energy for his Create Fart ritual; enough to create the stinkiest of farts.

Ouch. Stagnant am I? That said, I rather like your ideas here. But I would do something like 25%/50%/75%/100%. Actually, I'll probably try this out in my campaign and see how it works. It's not a bad idea - I might hve to steal it from ya! ;-D

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Ouch. Stagnant am I? That said, I rather like your ideas here. But I would do something like 25%/50%/75%/100%. Actually, I'll probably try this out in my campaign and see how it works. It's not a bad idea - I might hve to steal it from ya! ;-D

Well... I just meant that the numbers you had didn't scale well, in my opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with what you had, but I was trying to scale things. Your percentages might work better. My approach was nonlinear. But I'll try both.

Also, correction. 100 energy would be Devotion 3. You don't need Devotion to get the base energy (25, in that case).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Well... I just meant that the numbers you had didn't scale well, in my opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with what you had, but I was trying to scale things. Your percentages might work better. My approach was nonlinear. But I'll try both.

Also, correction. 100 energy would be Devotion 3. You don't need Devotion to get the base energy (25, in that case).

I know. I'm just messing with ya. :-) I actually like your approach better to be honest. I thought 25% because that was the highest traditional trapping bonus I ever gave for RPM (so far). and considering how many points you must invest in Divine Favor...it's worth the energy break I think.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Raekai

How would you reduce the time intervals? Day, 12 hours, 6 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour, 30 minutes, 10 minutes? That would be going in reverse of the Duration for an RPM spell, and I thought that might be fitting. Or could you let it increase the amount you get instead. 1 times, 2 times, 3 times, 4 times, etc. So 25 energy, 50, energy, 75 energy, 100 energy, etc. Would there be a cap on how high you can buy it? I'm really liking this idea though.

As I said before, the "Meditation, Holiness, and Study" rules in Thaumatology are riffing off of the Study Time rules in Characters, but with an "exchange rate" of 25 energy for every one character point that would ordinarily be earned. Talents give a -10% reduction on learning times per level, up to four levels; so I'd apply that time reduction directly to how quickly Meditation, Holiness, and Study generates energy: one level of Devotion reduces the times by 10%, two levels reduce the time by 20%, three levels reduce the time by 30%, and four levels reduce the time by 40%. Power-Ups: Talents recommends that you should never go beyond -40%; so I'd follow that advice here, too.

Originally Posted by Raekai

Can you pray for energy/help/whatever with this system that you've set up, or is the cap the ultimate cap? What if you really, really, really need your god to help you out in that moment? I guess what I'm getting at is... Does general/specific prayer still work for this? And if so, how so?

Absolutely; everything in Powers: Divine Favor continues to work exactly as written. For balance reasons, I wouldn't allow a regular prayer to be used to give you more Grace (the term I'm using for the energy points earned through "Meditation, Holiness, and Study" and used to fuel RPM spells); but beyond that, I wouldn't place any restrictions on Divine Favor that Powers: Divine Favor does not already place. This ability to use RPM as well is in addition to that. With that in mind, you might consider charging a flat 5 points (the cost of Magery 0) in addition to the cost of Divine Favor, if you're feeling nitpicky; but you're very likely already spending a hefty chunk of points on Divine Favor as is, and five points more or less does feel nitpicky to me.

Originally Posted by Raekai

I really like these ideas, and I feel like it's all coming together for me. I like this Devotional Enchantment pool, but I need some prayer mixed in too. I feel like that's a big part of what Divine Favor is, and I'd like to keep that in the mix. What would you do about that? The same thing that Ghostdancer suggested? I just feel like his numbers are... Stagnant. Maybe prayer, if you went the route of Devotion talent increasing your reserve, would have your god give you a certain percent back. Neutral would be 10%, Good would be 25%, Very Good would be 50%, and Excellent would be 100%. This energy would not stick around. It can only be used for the ritual being cast.

Example: Stewart the Cleric of Silliness wants to cast a Create Fart ritual. He's already expended his entire reserve of 100 energy (from Devotion 4) so he prays to his God of Jokes. He receives a Good reaction so his god grants him 25 energy for his Create Fart ritual; enough to create the stinkiest of farts.

As written, Prayers of all sorts don't cost any Grace; and if you need divine intervention in a pinch and don't have enough Grace to fuel a theurgic ritual, that's what they're there for.

The other thing to note, though, is that the "Meditation, Holiness, and Study" rules include a section where "important meritorious acts" are good for 25 energy points, with no time interval associated with them. Note that this is equivalent to doing something in play that the GM deems worthy of a character point reward: in a real pinch, if the GM agrees that the theurgic ritual itself counts as an "important meritorious act" (which I as the GM would rule as going above and beyond the call of duty), I'd use this option to grant him 25 points of Grace on the spot, effectively allowing the spell to fuel itself.

With all this in mind, I wouldn't double the energy generated by Meditation, Holiness, and Study; especially with the fallback to Divine Favor's Prayers, you don't need more than that. In fact, I'd go one step further and say that the RPM-style theurgy is every bit as susceptible to divine displeasure as everything else is: if you're on the outs with your god, the theurgy stops working until you've performed appropriate penance.

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

As I said before, the "Meditation, Holiness, and Study" rules in Thaumatology are riffing off of the Study Time rules in Characters, but with an "exchange rate" of 25 energy for every one character point that would ordinarily be earned. Talents give a -10% reduction on learning times per level, up to four levels; so I'd apply that time reduction directly to how quickly Meditation, Holiness, and Study generates energy: one level of Devotion reduces the times by 10%, two levels reduce the time by 20%, three levels reduce the time by 30%, and four levels reduce the time by 40%. Power-Ups: Talents recommends that you should never go beyond -40%; so I'd follow that advice here, too.

Ohhh! I get it now. Wow. This all makes perfect sense to me! Time to test this stuff out!

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Just another thought: what limitations and enhancements can we put on Ritual Adept sub-components?

So, for instance, making one sub-component Day-Aspected.

The only problem I see (granted, if you'll note my signature, the chances of me seeing much is low :-) is keeping track of which sub-component is the full-price one, and which ones are the "alternative ability" ones.

So, making the "don't need gestures" (IIRC?) Day-Aspected would reduce it below 10 pts, meaning that another sub-component would jump to full 10 pts, making "don't need gestures" an alternative ability, which means it probably wouldn't save any points (since it'd take a -50% limitation to reduce the 1/5 cost from 2 pts to 1 pt; unless ALL of the sub-components were similarly limited).

Still, it would add flavor. :-)

I would do this without Ritual Adept: if you need a miracle in a hurry, or when you're not at a sacred site (with the possible exception of using the Path of Divinity to consecrate a site and make it sacred), or when you don't have appropriate religious implements, you Pray. That's why you spent that massive chunk of points on Divine Favor, after all.

If you do allow Ritual Adept, it shouldn't get the "Alternate Ability" discount.

Likewise, if you decide that you want a separate ER for RPM in addition to the energy gained through Meditation, Holiness, and Study (and I wouldn't recommend this), I'd suggest charging for it by making the character take levels of Power Investiture (with no Alternate Ability reduction in cost) that acts like RPM's Magery for the purpose of theurgic energy. But as I said, I don't recommend this.

Neither of these should get the Alternate Ability reduction because neither is an Ability: they're not something that you do.

[Humabout]

This thread. It has so many awesome ideas in it. I know this will see use. Keep up the great work!

[Raekai]

Originally Posted by Humabout

This thread. It has so many awesome ideas in it. I know this will see use. Keep up the great work!

I know! I think this is the best thread that I have ever started! Of course, I definitely cannot take all of the credit. There are several other brilliant thinkers in here as well! :)

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

(snip)

Sorry for the confusion. I was posting as "customizing RPM," not "combining RPM and DivF"...