Passive Defense and 4e

[muduri]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Out of interest what was the issues with Knight vs. peasant?

Well OK, as long as I'm not the only one doing the re-animating, ha. I guess it wasn't really knight vs. peasant so much as two other scenarios: armored swordsman vs. leather-clad axeman, and knight vs. brittle rock troll.

Basically it comes down to an irrational nostalgia for PD so I won't work hard to justify it - I'm sure people have come up with other solutions for this. But I wanted a sort of bronze-age heroism, where metal items were rare but gave a significant edge - hence bringing back PD and (get ready) a Ready turn for axes and two Ready turns for polearms. And then costs for swords and metal armor were like +50%.

And rock trolls! I guess the 4 and 17 on the critical hit table, plus the Chinks in Armor rule, sort of take care of this, but if the players aren't totally up on hit location you have to admit there's a certain appeal to a creature with say PD10 (I know, I know), DR1, HP15, ha.

[Otaku]

I thank everyone for the suggestions. As I expected, it tended to be a rather "silly" kind of thing, and the suggestions posted seem like they should cover things.

Well, not using Luck for it, since that would require Luck I could use multiple times in one turn of combat. @_@ The Cosmic Enhancement plus the right Perk probably could handle it.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by muduri

But I wanted a sort of bronze-age heroism, where metal items were rare but gave a significant edge

Low Tech 4e already gives metal this edge, armor is much more resistant, and metal weapons are better than wooden/stone weapons.

Originally Posted by muduri

a Ready turn for axes and two Ready turns for polearms.

All you do using that is making sure no one uses an axe or polearm.

And rock trolls! I guess the 4 and 17 on the critical hit table, plus the Chinks in Armor rule, sort of take care of this, but if the players aren't totally up on hit location you have to admit there's a certain appeal to a creature with say PD10 (I know, I know), DR1, HP15, ha.

Probably, but then the strategy to kill the brute is not through high damage, but through well placed attacks while stealthy.

[muduri]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Low Tech 4e already gives metal this edge, armor is much more resistant, and metal weapons are better than wooden/stone weapons.
...
All you do using that is making sure no one uses an axe or polearm.

Aha! This is where it gets interesting. Or just Ptolemaically epicyclical, as just a convoluted way to avoid normal 4e, ha. The characters are half commoners ($800 as starting wealth for TL2.5, ha), who end up stuck with axes or polearms (since metal weapons and armor are 50% more expensive than normal), and half nobles (wealthy, $4000 or more), who can afford metal armor, swords etc. But +1 damage for every-second-turn melee weapons (axes), and +2 for every-third-turn (polearms), so not quite so terrible for hoi polloi. There's further down the rabbit hole to go but that's why there are still axe-users in this 3.9e game.

[kirbwarrior]

As for the Cosmic Dodge, remember that Dodges don't accrue penalties for multiple uses. Combined with Lucky Dodger, you can make a character who never actually dodges attacks but is just very much lucky.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by muduri

Well OK, as long as I'm not the only one doing the re-animating, ha. I guess it wasn't really knight vs. peasant so much as two other scenarios: armored swordsman vs. leather-clad axeman, and knight vs. brittle rock troll.

Basically it comes down to an irrational nostalgia for PD so I won't work hard to justify it - I'm sure people have come up with other solutions for this. But I wanted a sort of bronze-age heroism, where metal items were rare but gave a significant edge - hence bringing back PD and (get ready) a Ready turn for axes and two Ready turns for polearms. And then costs for swords and metal armor were like +50%.

And rock trolls! I guess the 4 and 17 on the critical hit table, plus the Chinks in Armor rule, sort of take care of this, but if the players aren't totally up on hit location you have to admit there's a certain appeal to a creature with say PD10 (I know, I know), DR1, HP15, ha.

Sorry I never played 3e so I'm still a bit lost on this?

If you want metal to be rare, just make it rare. (or rather make it only available for certain things. Axes are quite good for this because an axe head is relatively simple shape that done't require long thin bits of metal, although I think that was more an issue for early bronze and copper).

But yes I agree with gilbertocarlos if you make them slow no one will use them, from what I understand of PD you'll want to make as many attacks as you can (I think, my 3e stuff is in the attic at the moment)? If you have little armour lots of ordinary attacks will be better than a few heavy attacks as well?

Sorry I reckon I'm probably still missing something here!

I don't really have an issue with getting axes to be used, they are cheap and given defensive attacks, 2h use and/or shields they are pretty flexible weapons, more esoterically they are easier for your hoi palloi to carry around without having questions asked (especially at TL2 before long swords and bastard swords turn up)

[Jerander]

Another discussion on Passive Defense: thread.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

But yes I agree with gilbertocarlos if you make them slow no one will use them, from what I understand of PD you'll want to make as many attacks as you can (I think, my 3e stuff is in the attic at the moment)?

From what I recall of 3e in play (didn't do a lot of playing until 4e came out, and my books turned to mush due to a leak), requiring a ready for axes was pretty meaningless. Anyone who didn't have the ST to ignore the ready didn't use an axe. And no one used polearms. An option that has all drawbacks and no benefits isn't an option. At most, it's a penalty you're sometimes stuck with because you have no choice.

And something that takes away from gameplay and reduces realism isn't going to be high on my list of house rules.

[kirbwarrior]

I'm not sure on the rules in Low-Tech (don't have books atm), but I know that stone axes barely get worse than metal ones, while stone swords are hilariously bad. If metal is scarce, then axes and polearms already look better.

As for PD, I'd accept +300%* on Enhanced Defences to make it so they always work, even if the underlying defence can't. Heck, I think there is an option to auto-dodge with Cosmic in PU4.

*This is overpriced. I'm pretty sure there's a way to get 'No Roll Required' onto your Enhanced Defences, but I don't know how.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'm not sure on the rules in Low-Tech (don't have books atm), but I know that stone axes barely get worse than metal ones, while stone swords are hilariously bad. If metal is scarce, then axes and polearms already look better.

As for PD, I'd accept +300%* on Enhanced Defences to make it so they always work, even if the underlying defence can't. Heck, I think there is an option to auto-dodge with Cosmic in PU4.

*This is overpriced. I'm pretty sure there's a way to get 'No Roll Required' onto your Enhanced Defences, but I don't know how.

That's definitely a 300%, as it's blatantly cheating to just declare "I dodged that!"