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Old 03-01-2005, 01:33 AM   #1
Kyle Aaron
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Default Arrow damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by angel_lord, in a thread that went on and on
I do Bow hunt every fall, so I have some idea how they work versus moving target. The best idea would be to write some house rules to fix your problem. That is what most people do when they don't like the way a system works, and I'm sure you've been writing house rules since you first started playing GURPS, just like the rest of us.
That's one thing that I mentioned, that got lost in that thread - damage from arrows.

It seems a little low to me. 1d6 imp or so.

Now, I have practical experience of firearms damage (army and hunting), of knives (chef), and of brawling (army and boys' school). From this, I concluded firearms damage in GURPS was excessive, and we've dropped it for our game.

But I've no experience of arrow damage. Can anyone weigh in and say if it all seems reasonable?
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:15 AM   #2
thona
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Default Re: Arrow damage

It does not look too bad to me.

Average Person has HT 10.

imp does what - double damage? Can take out a normal person on a hit.

Not too bad.

Add criticals on top of it, and it seems realistic.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:22 AM   #3
sjard
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Default Re: Arrow damage

Well, arrows don't have quite as much impact trauma as a bullet to the surrounding tissue (shock wave brusing).

However they are generally believed to have better stoping power. A bullet either passes completely through the target or stops leaving a very small item inside the body. The damage done on the way in (especially if it tumbles) is where it gets its stopping power. An arrow (assuming wood) tends to leave a 1/4-1/2 inch diameter shaft burried in the body. The tip can continue to cut up the insides as the target moves, and just having the shaft in you that is that large (and long) can continually irritate and cause the target to not want to move too much.

The various head types for an arrow can add other factors. A modern field tip will do very little extra damage going in or coming back out. A bodkin arrow won't do much extra going in, but has a slight hook to cause more coming out when applicable. Broadheads are designed to cut going in enlarging the wound and causing more bleeding. Some modern types have barbs that are released when the arrow hits.

I'll stick with the basic 1d imp for field or bodkin tips, I might add an additional +1 or +2 for other specialized damage heads.
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Old 03-01-2005, 07:01 AM   #4
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Default Re: Arrow damage

Arrows actually have a pretty good chance of blowthrough if your bow has a decent draw weight unless you're wearing good armor that will slow it if it penetrates. It isn't uncommon with the medieval longbow (draw strength 120+) to have it go completely through chainmail and out the other side and its even been told of going right through a plate armored person. You can argue that medieval armor wasn't as effective as modern alloys, but late medieval plate was actually pretty comparable to average moderate quality steel today.
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Old 03-01-2005, 07:06 AM   #5
Luther
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Default Re: Arrow damage

sjard got it right, the damage is just fine.

With ST 11 (probably over 25% of population) the damage of a longbow
against an unarmored man is 1d6+1*2 = 2d6+2, the same of 9x21mm.
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Old 03-01-2005, 07:37 AM   #6
thona
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Default Re: Arrow damage

Better: 2d6+2 is an average of 9 points on 11 health.

Even hitting non-vital parts this is a serious wound. Hitting a vital (accidentally) takes the user definitly below 0.

Sounds about right to me.
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Old 03-01-2005, 08:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: Arrow damage

The wise men argue loudly and extensively on the efficeny of armour Vs arrows. As far as I'm concerned, I tend to agree that a fully armoured 13th century knight has more than a fair chance of absorbing a longbow hit at relevant ranges.
The chain mail itself might not stop the arrow, but the arming coat(the padded jacket underneath the mail) has a decent chance of slowing it down to the point where only a few points of damage gets through.
Again, the damage code seems about right.
For the spectacular, armour pierer effect, alow Bodkin tip arrows in your game...

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Old 03-02-2005, 11:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: Arrow damage

Sorry I missed this earlier Bob, been stuck in the Uberthread

Really, the Gurps bow damage is fairly acurate when considered within the curve we are using for health. Average health is 10, and a 1d6 arrow is going to imobalize most humans before armor. After armor the average arrow shot from the average bow should be far less effective (shock to tissue wise) than a handgun. Also, Medieval bow mythology makes us think of bows as far more effective than they really were. We read about Crecy and Agincourt and it just adds to the mystic and Mythology of the 'all powerful longbow". WHat we forget is that those bows were effective because of the mass of archers firing at the armored enemy - the muddy ground they were fighting on put the Knights at a serious disadvange- and the Bowmen probablly weren't using standard arrowheads. It is more likely they were using Bodkins.

A single bow against a single target is not only inefficient shot wise (as discussed iextensively in another thread) but using a standard arrowhead doesn't really do all that much damage. Keep in mind, however, that the arrow does do piercing, which is doubled. So your 1d6 arrow does have a damage potential (ignoring crits) of 2 to 12, not 1 to 6- which is more than enough to take down even some PC"s. Add crits into that and arrow damage in GURPS gets real nasty real quick.

Now for field experience, I'll have to use deer and bear hunting stories. For hunting deer or black bear I have used a compound bow with a draw weight of 60# (nearing 300 fps velocity). My experience with hunting for deer with Bows is that arrows are a really inefficient way to hunt an animal that is deer sized or larger unless you are really close (within 25 to 50 meters for the optimal shot) and even then the arrow isn't guaranteed to kill the deer outright. I've had several pass through shots, which really suck (which seriously supports the blowthrough rules btw). I've had to track down and then throat cut many a deer before being able to bring it home. Don't get me wrong, I've made quite a few clean kills on suprised deer with my bow, but the average is probablly only slightly over 50 percent if I took time to think about every deer I've hunted in the last 23 years.

As for black bear, the Bow is even less effective (which is why I always take my dad as my partner and he carries a gun). Of the four bears I have harvested in my hunting career, I've only made one clean kill even though all of the shots were to the same area of the bear.

This could all change for different arrowheads, and I've often been disappointed that GURPS didn't have any solid rules for diffferent types of arrowheads.

Btw- you say you and your have adjusted firearms damage. Can you tell me how, and did you modify modern armor similarily?

As for an Arrow having more stopping power - I've read two books by ballistic and criminal forensic fexperts that say stopping power for any ballsitic weapon is a total and complete myth. They had field test results in their book that were very enlightening. Though I'm not sure all of it is accurate - I have seen RL evidence that at least makes me consider that stopping power may be a joke we use to covince ourselves that guns very close to one another in utitlity are actually superior or inferior.

Last edited by angel_lord; 03-02-2005 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 03-02-2005, 12:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: Arrow damage

All I have ever shot are whitetails:
IME arrows kill through exsanguination, I always expect to have a bloodtrail of a minimum of 50 Yards after a good hit. They will sometimes run that far with a heart and lung hit.
With a variety of bows (currently a Matthews) ranging in draweight of 75-85lbs I would say that 90% are through and through, sometimes cutting/breaking ribs on both sides. That is usually over 2 feet of penetration.
Shooting a Man-sized target with a bow and you WILL have total-penetration.
The only thing I have ever seen completly stop an arrow from a modern bow is a direct hit on the shoulder ball/socket.
I ground hunt, exclusively, and WILL NOT shoot at anything farther than 40 yards, not because It wouldent be lethal, but because I couldent reliably hit Vitals.

angel_lord: 60lbs on a BEAR? Friend of mine has a sporting-goods/bowshop/gunstore, he tells me that most people around here draw 70-ish and that is just for whitetail!
......you gotta draw 100lb to hunt africa.......
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Old 03-02-2005, 12:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: Arrow damage

Longbow vs 400lb black bear Video

Beat is shot, penetrated through and through,runs a few yards falls down dead.
http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/featu...NDEX.CFM?DAY=4

Good bleeding rules are a must.
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