Impudite Dissonance: Inaction condition?

[JCurwen3]

The Impudites gain dissonance when they "personally [kill] a human - through action or inaction".

What does it mean to personally kill someone through inaction? I can understand deliberately not administering the antitoxin to a poisoned dying human, or not lifting them to safety if they're dangling off of a cliff about to fall. But what about a case where someone (seemingly a much weaker mundane) is about to kill a human in a way the Impudite could easily stop without causing any real threat or harm to itself, but it decides not to be the "good Samaritan"?

And can an Impudite order or request that a human be killed by another human or celestial? He wouldn't be personally killing the human through action, but after making the request / order, he'd be killing them (very personally) through inaction by not rescinding the hit. It'd be odd if an Impudite couldn't order a hit without causing it dissonance though, since Mercurians can do this (despite how out of character and in bad form it'd be).

[robkelk]

I recall in either the core rulebook or GURPS In Nomine, there's a vignette of a Djinn coming across a mortally-wounded human and sitting down to enjoy (or, rather, tolerate) watching the human die. That's definitely "inaction" - an Impudite would take Dissonance for doing the same thing.

Impudites love humanity for what they provide (while Mercurians love humanity for what they are). Anything that would reduce the number of humans is a Bad Thing for an Impudite. If the Impudite could reasonably have done something to keep that Essence source alive, but didn't, then that counts as "inaction" on the Impudite's part.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

The Impudites gain dissonance when they "personally [kill] a human - through action or inaction".

What does it mean to personally kill someone through inaction? I can understand deliberately not administering the antitoxin to a poisoned dying human, or not lifting them to safety if they're dangling off of a cliff about to fall. But what about a case where someone (seemingly a much weaker mundane) is about to kill a human in a way the Impudite could easily stop without causing any real threat or harm to itself, but it decides not to be the "good Samaritan"?

And can an Impudite order or request that a human be killed by another human or celestial? He wouldn't be personally killing the human through action, but after making the request / order, he'd be killing them (very personally) through inaction by not rescinding the hit. It'd be odd if an Impudite couldn't order a hit without causing it dissonance though, since Mercurians can do this (despite how out of character and in bad form it'd be).

Find Fred. You know Fred. He's the guy with the constant supply of good advice, freely loaned (or given) twenties, and cold beer that he's generous to a fault providing. Go to Fred, that guy who loves you, loans you stuff, has your back and slit his throat. If you don't have a Fred, a mother, girlfriend or wife are all also viable candidates (Provided you actually love and get along with them, and much more importantly GET things you value from those worthies)

That is what it is like for an Impudite to kill someone. Because every loves him. Everyone gives him stuff. Constantly. (Almost) At will. What's the saying? 'I don't know any strangers. There are only friends I haven't met yet.'

EVERY Human is a Fred to an Impudite...at least for a while.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by JCD

Find Fred. You know Fred. He's the guy with the constant supply of good advice, freely loaned (or given) twenties, and cold beer that he's generous to a fault providing. Go to Fred, that guy who loves you, loans you stuff, has your back and slit his throat. ...

EVERY Human is a Fred to an Impudite...at least for a while.

At least until he loses his job, pawns all his stuff, and starts asking for favors. Then I(impudite) am outta here.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

At least until he loses his job, pawns all his stuff, and starts asking for favors. Then I(impudite) am outta here.

Nah, that's when you introduce Fred to your friend, Lil(im), who'd be happy to do Fred some favors... and maybe owes you a favor for finding Fred for her, too.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

At least until he loses his job, pawns all his stuff, and starts asking for favors. Then I(impudite) am outta here.

That's the lovely part. Fred (or Ferdie) can always give you a back rub, loan you a coke, sleep with you, or just tell you how doggone special you are. Fred always has SOMETHING to give. Every day, one point at a time.

[Matthias Wasser]

I'd rule it as covering anything that could be solved with less effort than the expenditure of one essence - and not applying if you can get essence out of the kill somehow. Note that the Impudite Attunements of Death, the War, and Dark Humor all allow you to kill humans precisely under conditions of Rite fulfillment.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

I'd rule it as covering anything that could be solved with less effort than the expenditure of one essence - and not applying if you can get essence out of the kill somehow. Note that the Impudite Attunements of Death, the War, and Dark Humor all allow you to kill humans precisely under conditions of Rite fulfillment.

Please excuse me for disagreeing with you, however it is pretty clear that Impudites can potentially face a beat down over the Dissonance conditions, which is significantly more effort then one Essence.

If a human was having a heart attack, an Imp would have to perform CPR for as long as it took (of course, trying to steal Essence at the same time...). If one was drowning, guess who needs to swim out?

The important question to me is what if they do everything they can but still fail? They weren't inactive. They didn't do anything wrong. I would give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

[Acolyte]

Impudites have got to hate running into Soldiers of God as much as Mercurians hate running into Hellsworn.

Another important way to look at it is that dissonance conditions are not some metagame restriction but a natural extension of the Band/Choir's cosmic attitude. Impudites love to be loved--and what better way to make a friend for life than saving that life? Jumping in and rescuing a human preserves a food source and creates a life-long admirer. It's a win-win for the Impudite, even if he has to go out of his way to do it. (I'd certainly say spending Essence is worth it--like an investment.)

Clever Impudites might invest in abilities that disable or remove humans from a violent scene (Celestial Song of Motion into a nearby locked car would do the trick).

I'd rule that attempting to save a life and failing doesn't trigger dissonance, and ignorance certainly precludes dissonance (if you didn't know a grenade was about to go off, you couldn't have thrown your Vessel on it). And any Impudite is only one demon, after all--one in a Third World village attacked by paramilitary forces would get dissonance for not trying to save any villagers, but wouldn't get dissonance for each villager slain while he was rescuing others.

Here's an interesting question: how would you handle a pitched battle between Soldiers and celestials on both sides. Obviously the Impudite can't strike the killing blow on any Soldiers of Heaven, but can he be responsible for what the Calabite does on the other side of the melee? Does he have to disengage from Elohite-punching to drag an unconscious Hellsworn out of range of the Cherub's next Song of Thunder?

[Andygal]

actually Impudites probably hate running into Soldiers of God *worse* then Mercurians hate running into Hellsworn. At least if they both have allies. A Mercurian can just let their allies deal with the Hellsworn and concentrate on the demons, an Impudite can't even let his allies kill the humans. Add that to the fact that demons are probably not gong to give a crap if the Impudite gets dissonant and you have a massive headache for the Impudite.