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Old 01-20-2020, 08:18 AM   #41
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: GURPS Dune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
I know very little about the Dune universe, but could you kidnap a guilder and force him to work in exchange for spice?
You could buy a small planet with a navigator spices need.

And it would go about as well as stealing an US nuclear carrier and using it for your navy...

Not to mention, how would you force him to go somewhere else than straight home ?

Last edited by Celjabba; 01-20-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:05 AM   #42
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
And it would go about as well as stealing an US nuclear carrier and using it for your navy...
The navigator or the whole Heighliner?

Like anything else, the Spacing Guild is going to react according to the trouble caused and the perceived threat. A rogue Navigator that starts working for the Atreides on Arrakis to train up a bunch of independent Navigators is a direct attack on the Guild's power base, and would reasonably elict the best response they can muster. A rogue Navigator that just disappears (likely faking his death) and is living quietly on some backwater isn't an active threat, even if the Guild suspects he's alive, and it's not nearly so obvious or even plausible to me that that's going to call down the full might the Guild can bring to bear. There's a range of possible responses -- even before you start bending your favorite most plausible case for the sake of a campaign premise.

So (as usual), the question of whether or not you could have a rogue Guild Navigator really goes back to that campaign premise. Do they characters even need independent space travel for some reason? If so, are they operating at a relatively high level of power and significance? Noble houses aren't the same as a ship of smugglers. A rogue Guild pilot is (in GURPS terms) going to come with at least a Secret if not a powerful Enemy, not to mention their Addiction, and that sort of character is going to affect the storyline at least a little bit. So, it's part of the campaign premise that needs to be planned for, acceptable to the group as well as the GM. It seems a plausible and even viable character concept to me, just one that comes with a lot of baggage, less well suited for freewheeling sandbox murder hobos than a more tightly plotted game.

(The whole group is going to get hunted and their intended possible stories altered. You might can have some fun with the secret being a secret from most of the players -- but see the past thread about bait-and-switch campaigns. Discovery of that secret and its resolution might even be the whole point of the campaign. But in general, if you expect the characters to find out and then continue with the campaign, it's nice to make sure up front everyone's on board with that sort of thing.)
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:27 AM   #43
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

I think it is canon that a navigator prescience hide him (and those close to him) for other prescients, so ... it is possible.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:09 AM   #44
AllenOwen
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Thomaston, GA
Default Re: GURPS Dune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The navigator or the whole Heighliner?

Like anything else, the Spacing Guild is going to react according to the trouble caused and the perceived threat. A rogue Navigator that starts working for the Atreides on Arrakis to train up a bunch of independent Navigators is a direct attack on the Guild's power base, and would reasonably elict the best response they can muster. A rogue Navigator that just disappears (likely faking his death) and is living quietly on some backwater isn't an active threat, even if the Guild suspects he's alive, and it's not nearly so obvious or even plausible to me that that's going to call down the full might the Guild can bring to bear. There's a range of possible responses -- even before you start bending your favorite most plausible case for the sake of a campaign premise.

So (as usual), the question of whether or not you could have a rogue Guild Navigator really goes back to that campaign premise. Do they characters even need independent space travel for some reason? If so, are they operating at a relatively high level of power and significance? Noble houses aren't the same as a ship of smugglers. A rogue Guild pilot is (in GURPS terms) going to come with at least a Secret if not a powerful Enemy, not to mention their Addiction, and that sort of character is going to affect the storyline at least a little bit. So, it's part of the campaign premise that needs to be planned for, acceptable to the group as well as the GM. It seems a plausible and even viable character concept to me, just one that comes with a lot of baggage, less well suited for freewheeling sandbox murder hobos than a more tightly plotted game.

(The whole group is going to get hunted and their intended possible stories altered. You might can have some fun with the secret being a secret from most of the players -- but see the past thread about bait-and-switch campaigns. Discovery of that secret and its resolution might even be the whole point of the campaign. But in general, if you expect the characters to find out and then continue with the campaign, it's nice to make sure up front everyone's on board with that sort of thing.)
This would make a god adventure. But, why would a navigator go rogue?
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:41 AM   #45
beetle496
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

OP probably knows this, but timing for a GURPS Dune is very good! It was news to me that another movie is coming out at the end of the year. One cannot count on the players being readers, but everyone loves the movies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
You could buy a small planet with a navigator spices need.
Having a large stock of Melange is definitely a prerequisite. As I recall, a third stage navigator entire caloric intake would be spice. But securing a decades worth would not be an impossible amount. I am also skeptical that would be enough spice to buy a small (inhabited) planet.
Quote:
And it would go about as well as stealing an US nuclear carrier and using it for your navy…
That is not so different from some James Bond stories!
Quote:
Not to mention, how would you force him to go somewhere else than straight home?
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Originally Posted by AllenOwen View Post
This would make a good adventure. But, why would a navigator go rogue?
From the discussion here, that seems like less of a problem than I was thinking! Probably many of the lower rank navigators don’t care where they are going, so long as they get to feed their addictions.
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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
A rogue Navigator that just disappears (likely faking his death) and is living quietly on some backwater isn't an active threat, even if the Guild suspects he's alive, and it's not nearly so obvious or even plausible to me that that's going to call down the full might the Guild can bring to bear. There's a range of possible responses -- even before you start bending your favorite most plausible case for the sake of a campaign premise.
Thanks for that! That feels reasonable to me.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:16 AM   #46
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

Dune is hard to remember, like how extensive do the novels really make the Weirding Way?

It gets built up a lot by fans like it's pseudo-teleporting or something but from what I read that wasn't the impression I got...
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:18 AM   #47
AllenOwen
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

It gets pretty well developed in Heretic of Dune. And yes, it seems to involve teleporting, or rather moving so fast it seems like teleporting.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:29 AM   #48
beetle496
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by AllenOwen View Post
Also, no spice, slowly go barking insane and then die.
All the main characters (nobles, Fremen, BG, Mentat) were all addicts. But how common was spice addiction in the main populace?
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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Dune is hard to remember, like how extensive do the novels really make the Weirding Way?
It never seemed well described to me, so I was happy to have the 1984 movie visualize it as a sonic weapon. But maybe I never read Heretic of Dune? From a GURPS perspective, I would be tempted to run it as just a secretive and OP martial arts school.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:47 AM   #49
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

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Originally Posted by AllenOwen View Post
It gets pretty well developed in Heretic of Dune. And yes, it seems to involve teleporting, or rather moving so fast it seems like teleporting.
Yeah the best example I can remember is Miles Teg basically going SSJ and wrecking Honoring Matres who had wrecked the Bene Gesserit.

I'm just wondering if it's largely metaphor. I think an average fighter (who would get wrecked by even a beginner BG) would probably move so fast in respect to my untrained perception that he would seem to teleport even though to someone used to observing fighters he would be perceivable.

I remember there was a DBZ moment like that too, where some muggle was asking what all the Z fighters were watching (the fight was so fast it wasn't visible to normies) but the Z-fighters had rapidly moving eyes and were able to follow the fight, and there was dialogue about that...

Just not entirely clear if the "Teg apex" or whatever you'd call it of Prana Bindu actually approaches the speed tiers of guys like Flash/Quicksilver/Goku though.
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Old 01-20-2020, 12:17 PM   #50
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: GURPS Dune

One the purposes of martial training is for people to act by reflex, as thought is too slow for combat. It does not matter if you are consciously aware of an action, it only matters if your unconscious mind can trigger the appropriate reflexes. The reason why a properly trained warrior appears to move quicker than thought is because they do.

Combat Reflexes is actually a good representation of the reflexes of a trained warrior. There is no hestitation and no thought, just the triggering of established reflexive protocols by the unconscious mind. A trained warrior should defend before they are even consciously aware that they are under attack and should fluidly flow from defense to attack and back again without any thought.
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