01-11-2020, 03:37 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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... To the topic at hand, as others have noted the technical difference is the story's narrative structure (is the character a protagonist or antagonist). For the way a lot of people look at it, I think it boils down to a combination of goal, how well the character's actions represent the goal, and in some cases how extreme the character gets in pursuing the goal. Thanos in the MCU is a villain - he has a good goal (stop suffering, creating a universe/galaxy of plenty), but his actions don't mesh well with that stated goal (he causes more suffering than he prevents, and killing off half of the producers isn't going to magically create a world of plenty) and are far too extreme. Skitter from Worm is an antihero - she actually starts as an aspiring hero, infiltrating a villain organization. It doesn't take her long to realize the "heroes" aren't really that much better than many of the "villains," and she becomes a full-time supervillain largely to allow her to guide the Undersiders into being a decent organization. She uses some extreme methods, but they always mesh well with her plans to help people, and when she does bad things (sending bullet ants after thugs, lying to an ally so that she'll attack while there are still allies and innocents in the area of effect, shooting a baby, to say nothing of her crimes against free-will as Nephri), she only does it because the alternatives are worse (allowing innocents under her protection to continue being terrorized, allowing a pseudo-Endbringer to escape, allowing a disaster that will kill the majority of humans across multiple worldlines*, and allowing humanity to be completely wiped out, respectively). I've seen comments online defining nominal heroes as villains, due simply to the disasters they failed to prevent (or had an unwitting hand in, even if it's just "the villains attacked because they wanted to capture/kill the hero"), but I strongly disagree with those. A hero who fails from time to time is likely still a hero, just not a particularly lucky/skilled one. *She was wrong about this one, sadly, meaning the baby largely died in vain.
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01-11-2020, 05:09 PM | #12 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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01-11-2020, 05:23 PM | #13 |
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
Yes, these characters were part of a major long-term trend of change in the idea of a hero from a figure that was enviable in every way (or who had a single disastrous flaw, if the work was a tragedy) to someone much more relatable, with a single decisive virtue.
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01-11-2020, 06:14 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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01-12-2020, 01:03 AM | #15 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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He could also be considered a tragic hero, in the context of another level of the story: bully's victim takes attempt for justice too far. But neither context would reasonably pitch him as an anti-hero.
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RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats. |
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01-12-2020, 02:32 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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From a literary standpoint, he's an antihero simply by virtue of not being a traditional hero but being the protagonist. In more common terms, he's arguably an antihero because, while he's doing villainous things, he's purposefully avoiding undue harm to innocents and is at least partially motivated by a desire to improve the world. Skitter from Worm, once she opts to dedicate herself to being an Undersider rather than an unofficially-undercover superhero, still counts more as antihero than villain for largely the same reasons (although she is much more effective, and far more ruthless, than Horrible was, as is appropriate for the respective genres of the stories). Of course, both characters are defined as "villains" in their respective settings.
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01-12-2020, 06:04 AM | #17 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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01-12-2020, 02:39 PM | #18 | |
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
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One good working definition of an anti-hero is a character you root for, but aren't sure you should, but also aren't sure you shouldn't. Note that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether the character thinks he's wrong or not.
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HMS Overflow-For conversations off topic here. Last edited by Johnny1A.2; 01-12-2020 at 02:49 PM. |
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01-12-2020, 10:14 PM | #19 |
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
An example of what I mean that anti-hero status lies in the mind of the reader/viewer rather than the character: the recent Godzilla King of the Monsters movie.
Spoilers follow. The character of Emma Russell probably thinks of herself as a hero, or at least an anti-hero, but most of the audience probably sees her as a deluded (at best) villainess in releasing Ghidorah. In her own mind, she's doing something hard but necessary in releasing the Titans, she's trying to 'save the world', and the murders and betrayals and destruction along the way are necessary collateral damage. She's even right, in part, about some of the beneficial effects of the Titans. But she fails of anti-hero status (I suspect) for most viewers because: 1. There are other, better ways to do what she's trying to do. 2. Her own ego and emotional damage are a big part of the actual reasons she's doing it. 3. She's reckless and absorbed in her own fantasy-view of what she's doing, ignoring the external realities around her until it's too late.
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01-13-2020, 03:29 PM | #20 |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: The line between anti-hero and full on villain.
Most well written villains will likely see themselves as heroes. Even those that recognize their own villainy will see their own actions as either justified or beyond their own control.
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RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats. |
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