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Old 01-20-2020, 11:05 AM   #71
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
I have been given to understand that prone shooting in battle wasn't usually practical until the introduction of breech-loading rifles, because it is awkward and difficult to reload a muzzle-loader while prone.
Not really. Skirmishers and riflemen did it all the time.

Roll onto your back, hold the musket between your knees bracing the butt with one foot, reload per normal until its time to prime the pan/place the cap on the lock, then roll prone to finish the reload sequence.

You lose some time due to having to roll and due to the unfamiliar posture, but not that much. Should be improvable as an Average technique.

But, from a tactical point of view you don't want to be lying belly-up reloading a musket which takes 15-30 seconds to load when it's only accurate out to 50 yards and your enemy might be able to charge to contact before you can reload. Even worse, reloading prone means that you can't see what your enemy is up to in the meantime.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:17 AM   #72
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by night-hunter View Post
Prior to the picatinny rail was the simple dove-tail rail on the receiver, which allowed the early versions of scopes, which had decent optics. Fixed as well as collapsible telescopes were one of the major early technologies (First telescope in1608 built by Hans Lippershey in the Netherlands.) Scopes were in fairly common use by the 1860s. Note the Berdan riflemen of the US Civil War.
I don't think you can really say 'fairly common' when not even all snipers had them. They were also fairly horrible, with poor light gathering and a tendency to fog in damp or humid conditions (a problem not really solved until the 60s or even 70s). Note that weather or not to put a scope on a long-ranged hunting rifle was still a matter of debate into the 80s, and it was only after WWII that they were routinely mounted on sniping rifles.

Useable rifle scopes would be TL6 technology, decent ones TL7, and good mass-market ones, especially reliable variable-power scopes, TL8+.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:29 AM   #73
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

Are machine tools and improved materials allowed?

If so, you rapidly get TL6-7 quality weapons at TL4-5, with greatly reduced prices.

Presses which produce swaged bullets and scales capable of measuring fine weights effectively reduce the cost of match-grade ammo and save riflemen from having to DIY.

Modern blackpowder rifle saboted ammo reduces lead fouling in the lands while giving the same gas seal as a Minie' ball. That eliminates much of the powder and lead fouling associated with sustained shooting of a BP weapon. Sub-caliber ammo might give better long-range ballistic performance than a regular Minie' ball.

Pre-made TL8 alloy stainless steel barrels and lock parts are stronger and much less susceptible to corrosion than lower TL steels. No real game effects, but shooters will appreciate reduced cleaning time.

Furthermore, there are lots of little design improvements built into TL6+ guns, especially at TL8. Better trigger design, better balance, more ergonomic design, kinder recoil behavior. Take a look at modern black powder hunting rifles for real-like examples of 21st c. engineering applied to 19th c. technology.

All that said, don't discount what TL5, esp. late TL5 technology could do. I've got Victorian era microscopes which have tolerances as good as anything I'd expect from a modern firearm accessory. The main difference is that TL8 machines can do the job way better and faster than an 1840s machinist working with hand tools.

Riflemen of the period could and did use optical sights (they date to the late 18th c.). Modern niceties like night sights and ranging reticules would be welcome additions, however. In game terms, modern optics on a TL5 rifle might boost the maximum Acc bonus for Aimed shots or Precision Aiming.
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Old 01-20-2020, 02:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Are machine tools and improved materials allowed?
Yes, but they are difficult to amortise where there are no regular market supplies of machinists, literate & numerate high school graduates, electrical power, uniform high-spec materials, ready-made standardised components (e.g. screws), where there is inadequate transport infrastructure to deliver your inputs and distribute your outputs, where the institutions that are supposed to ensure timely delivery and payment (e.g. commercial courts and contract law) are ineffective, slow, or corrupt, and where a warlord's or revolutionary's thugs might show up several times per month to confiscate, redistribute, draft, or execute your stock in hand, plant and equipment, and skilled workers.

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If so, you rapidly get TL6-7 quality weapons at TL4-5, with greatly reduced prices.
Economic and technological convergence has not in fact gone as smoothly as you'd think it would, because operating a high-tech factory without the economic infrastructure turns out to be much more costly and much less productive than you imagine. The French monarchy discovered this when it tried to get John Holker to introduce spinning jennies into France in 1750. They failed in India, too. Several electronics firms learned it the expensive way trying to manufacture electronics in Thailand in the 1990s.

Anyway, suppose that you could manufacture cheap AR-15s in the Sheffield of 1820. What about the Khartoum of 1800?
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Last edited by Agemegos; 01-20-2020 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:17 AM   #75
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by Sam Cade View Post
The real world answer was the Dreyse needle gun, the first bolt action rifle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyse_needle_gun
And think how much better it could be with high TL reamers and dies to make much more precise fits than tech then could.

Precision tools and measurment tools are going to be huge game changers in firearms manufacturing even with total and effective bans on importing weapons and weapon technical information.

Interchangeable parts become easy when you can measure them.
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Old 01-22-2020, 08:46 AM   #76
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Precision tools and measurment tools are going to be huge game changers in firearms manufacturing even with total and effective bans on importing weapons and weapon technical information.
Even today the gunsmiths in Af/Pak/SE Asia make smallarms with hand tools because those are what they can afford, and wages are low.
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Old 01-22-2020, 09:14 AM   #77
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Even today the gunsmiths in Af/Pak/SE Asia make smallarms with hand tools because those are what they can afford, and wages are low.
Yes, but they are depending on factory made ammo for their hand-made guns. The example doesn't carry over directly.

Better fitting breaches with tighter tolerances are only part the Dreyse's problem Imported firing pins made from some very tough UT metal look very good. The inspectors might not even recognize them as parts of a weapon. Tell them you're importing super-durable needles for punching holes in the native leather or something like that.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:12 PM   #78
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Yes, but they are depending on factory made ammo for their hand-made guns. The example doesn't carry over directly.
Yes, in places where fancy machines don't make economic sense, they can produce 20th century smallarms by importing ammunition and just making the weapons themselves. So in Brett's setting, where they don't have access to machine-made brass cartridges at all, how does that make the fancy machines more viable? He has mentioned gengeneered cartridge-bushes but it sounds like those produce a propellant not a hard case.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:53 PM   #79
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Even today the gunsmiths in Af/Pak/SE Asia make smallarms with hand tools because those are what they can afford, and wages are low.
With the right gauges and measuring you can use files and other hand tools to get to very high degrees of accuracy. My old boss had a cube on a 45 that as an apprentice he hand filed the whole thing to with in 0.0005" of square and true. The measuring tools are in many ways more important than the cutting tools to high precision machining.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:57 PM   #80
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Default Re: High/ultra tech sights/accessories on muzzle-loaders

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Yes, but they are depending on factory made ammo for their hand-made guns. The example doesn't carry over directly.

Better fitting breaches with tighter tolerances are only part the Dreyse's problem Imported firing pins made from some very tough UT metal look very good. The inspectors might not even recognize them as parts of a weapon. Tell them you're importing super-durable needles for punching holes in the native leather or something like that.
I would also wonder about better rubber compounds for obturation in more like a chassepot system.

I think there are lots of ways that a small volume of high tech could make breach loading far more practical even without drawn brass casings.
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