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Old 02-23-2011, 03:32 AM   #61
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I beleive this overlooks the overlapping/continuous nature of gurps Turns. A's Turn 1 does not end after he carries out the Move action he announced. It only "ends" just before his Turn 2 "begns".

So he was both Moving and Dodging while he had 0 HP and should roll.
Again, "at the start of your next turn." Quoted from the rules. You're right that turns are overlapping and continuous (Which is why I specified "A turn 1, B turn 1," not "turn 1, A's action, turn 1, B's action"), but I don't see how that goes to support the rest of what you said. There is quite a distinct functional difference between the end of your current turn and the beginning of your next turn; you have the option of choosing a different maneuver before being forced to make an unconsciousness check with the later. He was still in his turn 1, and gets knocked down to 0 HP. "At the start of your next turn" would then be his turn 2, since he's already past the start of his turn 1. If they wanted you to make the roll, no matter what, at the end of your turn, they would have said, "at the end of your current turn." They did not. It's pretty unambiguous, so I'm really at a loss as to how this is causing so much confusion.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:13 AM   #62
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Iceland is a country that has less than 100 murders a year, where the population is that of a large city in another country, and I suspect cops don't get killed pretty much ever. The situation in Washington DC or Los Angeles is radically different, to say nothing of how it works in Johannesburg or Bogata.
Violence spawns violence; it doesn't solve it. Gradual de-escalation is the way to go. After all, Iceland used to be the land of horned berserkers killing each other in the morning to feast in the evening. ;)
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:24 AM   #63
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Violence spawns violence; it doesn't solve it. Gradual de-escalation is the way to go. After all, Iceland used to be the land of horned berserkers killing each other in the morning to feast in the evening. ;)
I know the latter part is a joke, but the former part is not exactly supported by evidence.

There is a fairly direct correlation between the accumulated capacity for violence in cultures and the amount of violence that happens daily. The highest rates of murder, rape and assault took place in cultures where weapons of war were unknown and there were no armies, police, security forces or other trained wielders of violence.

I'm not going to come out and say that this correlation suggests causation. But it is at the very least fairly good evidence against the belief that violence is caused by anything other than the innate human predilection towards being bastards.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:11 AM   #64
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
SeemED. The whole point of shooting was to change that.
Also, I would like to remind that not all countries even supply their patrols with lethal firearms at all. Just saying this to show a counter-example.
Just because the justification for deadly force is no longer present does not exclude a person from being handcuffed, wounded or otherwise. If I, as the arresting officer, know that handcuffing the suspect will cause him/her further harm, then I might be persuaded to just watch them until the ambulance arrives and it becomes somebody else's problem. But as I said before, if not handcuffing the suspect somehow compromises my safety, they get cuffed. Any police officer will tell you same thing, it's not worth dying over something as stupid as not handcuffing a suspect, especially one stupid enough to provoke the use of deadly force. Obviously I can only speak for American police, but I can't imagine a law enforcement agency anywhere that would allow the safety of suspect who provoked deadly force to take precedence over the safety of one of their officers.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:26 AM   #65
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Just because the justification for deadly force is no longer present does not exclude a person from being handcuffed, wounded or otherwise. If I, as the arresting officer, know that handcuffing the suspect will cause him/her further harm, then I might be persuaded to just watch them until the ambulance arrives and it becomes somebody else's problem. But as I said before, if not handcuffing the suspect somehow compromises my safety, they get cuffed. Any police officer will tell you same thing, it's not worth dying over something as stupid as not handcuffing a suspect, especially one stupid enough to provoke the use of deadly force. Obviously I can only speak for American police, but I can't imagine a law enforcement agency anywhere that would allow the safety of suspect who provoked deadly force to take precedence over the safety of one of their officers.
I can well imagine that most people would prefer to risk others in preference to themselves, yes.

On the other hand, police officers are paid to assume certain risks. Their very purpose is to protect the citizenry. In this, they have a similar task as firefighters. Obviously, firefighters would be safer if they simply contained flames and didn't try to go into them to pull out people, especially people dumb enough to be caught in a fire.

The thing is, public servants are not courts. They don't have any formal authority to decide when a citizen is so stupid that his life becomes worth less. Nor should they, in my opinion.

In an emergency situation, police officers may act with deadly force to protect themselves and others. This does not mean that they are free to decide that a little extra risk to others is preferable to a little extra risk to themselves.

Obviously, I'm aware how difficult it is to obtain adequate public servants. Most people will casually assume a risk on the part of others if it merely makes their jobs a little easier, let alone if it makes them substantially safer. None of that has any impact on the standards society can choose to impose nor the standards it should impose.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:13 AM   #66
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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I can well imagine that most people would prefer to risk others in preference to themselves, yes.

On the other hand, police officers are paid to assume certain risks. Their very purpose is to protect the citizenry. In this, they have a similar task as firefighters. Obviously, firefighters would be safer if they simply contained flames and didn't try to go into them to pull out people, especially people dumb enough to be caught in a fire.

The thing is, public servants are not courts. They don't have any formal authority to decide when a citizen is so stupid that his life becomes worth less. Nor should they, in my opinion.

In an emergency situation, police officers may act with deadly force to protect themselves and others. This does not mean that they are free to decide that a little extra risk to others is preferable to a little extra risk to themselves.

Obviously, I'm aware how difficult it is to obtain adequate public servants. Most people will casually assume a risk on the part of others if it merely makes their jobs a little easier, let alone if it makes them substantially safer. None of that has any impact on the standards society can choose to impose nor the standards it should impose.
Wow, a topic where I fully support Icelander's post without picking which bits I agree and which I disagree with.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:29 AM   #67
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I can well imagine that most people would prefer to risk others in preference to themselves, yes.

On the other hand, police officers are paid to assume certain risks. Their very purpose is to protect the citizenry. In this, they have a similar task as firefighters. Obviously, firefighters would be safer if they simply contained flames and didn't try to go into them to pull out people, especially people dumb enough to be caught in a fire.

The thing is, public servants are not courts. They don't have any formal authority to decide when a citizen is so stupid that his life becomes worth less. Nor should they, in my opinion.

In an emergency situation, police officers may act with deadly force to protect themselves and others. This does not mean that they are free to decide that a little extra risk to others is preferable to a little extra risk to themselves.

Obviously, I'm aware how difficult it is to obtain adequate public servants. Most people will casually assume a risk on the part of others if it merely makes their jobs a little easier, let alone if it makes them substantially safer. None of that has any impact on the standards society can choose to impose nor the standards it should impose.
I agree with this post up until you look at its context. You're saying that a police officer shouldn't cuff suspects because doing so might put the suspect in danger, no matter how dangerous it is to the police officer in question - and that's something I simply can't agree with.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:42 AM   #68
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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I agree with this post up until you look at its context. You're saying that a police officer shouldn't cuff suspects because doing so might put the suspect in danger, no matter how dangerous it is to the police officer in question - and that's something I simply can't agree with.
I think this is not quite what Icelander meant. A person holding a firearm pointed at the cop or hostage is a usually deemed a threat worthy of a lethal application of force. A casualty lying on the ground? Not the same threat level.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:57 AM   #69
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I think this is not quite what Icelander meant. A person holding a firearm pointed at the cop or hostage is a usually deemed a threat worthy of a lethal application of force. A casualty lying on the ground? Not the same threat level.
Which is why you don't shoot that casualty a second time. That doesn't mean they aren't still a threat, nor does it mean that you should ignore them. Someone who is shot isn't automatically killed, not even if they fall to the ground and aren't moving.

In other words, a guy who is on the ground and not moving might turn out to be alive and able to turn around and shoot me in the face while I'm standing there waiting patiently for the paramedics to arrive.

You treat all suspects as if they're alive and a threat until it's proven otherwise, especially ones that have just been shooting at you.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:06 AM   #70
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Default Re: Overkill on a Mozambique drill

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Violence spawns violence; it doesn't solve it. Gradual de-escalation is the way to go. After all, Iceland used to be the land of horned berserkers killing each other in the morning to feast in the evening. ;)
Might it possibly have something to do with the fact that Iceland is basically ethnically homogeneous, wealthy, well educated and has basically one medium sized city? All of this is extremely off-topic, so if you want to continue this you should do so in genchat (although honestly I don't think it will go anywhere).

Back on-topic: I think it's very weird that we can read the same rules and come away with two different conclusions. I don't think there is any ambiguity at all. Perhaps it's time to ask Kromm or RPK?
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