06-05-2018, 01:51 AM | #51 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: THS 2120!
Does it really matter whether the path to science is direct or roundabout? The big point is that science is possible in a given field, and becomes possible not just hypothetically but accessibly after the right paradigm-shift occurs. Memetics postulates a paradigm-shift event that is very much similar to the discovery of molecular genetics, genome sequencing and direct DNA manipulation. It also involves overcoming very similar hurdles - those of the whole process being more recipe-like than blueprint/plan-like.
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06-05-2018, 02:04 AM | #52 | |
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Re: THS 2120!
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(Also, people will of course argue over which positions on the spectrum are at all possible, more often based on their own biases than on actual knowledge, because attaining true alt-history knowledge is hard.) As noted above, it probably depends on how you interpret the outcomes. One could argue that the world we live in, where people can convince each other of stuff by just using words and suddenly subverting another's free will, is quite dark. At least one coming from a world where that is not an ability people possess and free will can't be bound by persuasion or manipulation. But to us modern humans, such ability seems like a fundamental part of us and our society, and many would say that losing it would make the world grimmer. |
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06-05-2018, 07:37 AM | #53 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: THS 2120!
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People believe what they want to believe and success in proto-memetics consists in finding out what that is and catering to it.
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Fred Brackin |
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06-05-2018, 07:48 AM | #54 | |
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Re: THS 2120!
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But on the other side, yes, to a large degree social influence is a form of catering to existing parameters of a mind in order to glitch the mind into internalising new parameters even though they are coming from an 'insecure source'. Memetics is just a field that makes people better at it through certain new discoveries on the angles of attack. |
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06-05-2018, 08:30 AM | #55 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: THS 2120!
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People do join religious groups but to my observation they do it because they want some benefit of belonging to that group. The first religious identity they adopt is probably for the purpose of gaining their parents' approval (or avoiding their wrath). After that they find who they wish to be with (peer group, spouse, whatever) and discover that their beliefs now mirror their desires. I have never seen it work the other way around.
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Fred Brackin |
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06-05-2018, 08:44 AM | #56 | |
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Re: THS 2120!
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Also, people join religions to get the benefits of the group, then why did all religions not die out immediately after their creation with a follower count of 1? After all, if everyone is just after the benefits of belonging to the group, then there's no reason for the group to ever become religious in the first place. |
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06-05-2018, 09:10 AM | #57 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: THS 2120!
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Charismatic people attract followers almost by definition. So a charismatic founder of a new religion will attract personal followers. Possibly even hundreds of them who are willing to drink the Kool-aid for him. It's happened in my lifetime. It had very little that I can tell to do with "beliefs" though. Wallflower founders can end up causing much change due to surrounding circumstances. for example, somebody became a religious success story because of Henry VIII (of England) and his desire for a divorce. Henry tailored his "beliefs" to his personal advantage and many people followed his example due to his wealth and power and their desires to gain parts of those. Or to avoid his wrath. So no, not a memetically driven event. If we had a true science of memetics one of the things I beleive it would show was that the number of persons whose actions are driven by "pure" belief in ideas is generally statistically insignificant.
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Fred Brackin |
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06-05-2018, 09:16 AM | #58 |
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Re: THS 2120!
Seems like a major disagreement about the world and people between the two of us. And one that can be read as an insinuation that an overwhelming majority of religious people are lying about themselves . . . which is . . . well it certainly looks nihilistic and seems to be at odds with some fundamental rights like protection of religious affiliation/expression/actions/etc.. Since I misunderstood you before, am I misunderstanding the latter implications again?
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06-05-2018, 09:53 AM | #59 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: THS 2120!
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As to rights to practice religion. did I say anything similar to "....and they have to be _stopped_!"? My disbelief in the primacy of ideas goes so far as to extend to not believing that other persons should be forced to adopt my ideas. You, on the other hand might be an _idealist_ or a person who does believe in the primacy of ideas. I hope that it does not offend you that I think that the number of persons like you to be a statistically insignificant group but I myself have been long accustomed to knowing that there are few people truly like me in the ways I consider important. I am not a member of large and powerful tribe. You do not need to fear the wrath of my tribe. I'm going to stop now before I feel the urge to type "wrath" again. :)
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Fred Brackin |
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06-05-2018, 11:05 AM | #60 | |||
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Re: THS 2120!
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