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11-05-2006, 06:09 AM | #1 | |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: At the Stern, Raising the Black
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Immortality in THS
In the John Sanchez thread (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=20913) something came up that piqued my interest. (Yeah that can happen now and then ;-)). It were the comments about immortality in THS like:
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That done, after some duely hesitation, I decided to open a thread concerning the matter. :P I want to focus on the Cellular Rejuvenation treatment described on THS p.167 - and its ramifications. Anyone who undergoes the successful treatment ends up as a "young adult" again...that presumably means age 18 to 20. There are risks involved: temporary amnesia - but this will vanish in days, a few months in the worst cases. More serious is the risk of ending up braindead...and this most likely means REALLY dead in the world of THS. But this risk is quite small: only a critical failure on the skill roll involved results in the subect meeting his/her untimely(?) end. And, assuming that the skill of the treating physician is 16+ - quite likely in the setting I dare say - the chances that it happens are only 1 in 216 in the GURPS system. That would mean a failure rate of less than half of a percent. In other words: if a especially vain person would undergo the cellular rejuvenation treatment at the age of 50 (quite early by the standards of the setting) and then every 50 years thereafter, his or her chances to be able to celebrate his/her 1000th birthday are statistically a bit over 91% ! (A Ziusudra Parahuman would have about the same chance to live to the age of 2000 years). Admittedly this excludes the possibility to die in an accident, as victim of a crime, a war or a catastrophe. But it also assumes that there are no further technological improvements of the technology. So, from a theoretical standpoint the technology is indeed imperfect and people still die, yes. But it comes quite close to immortality. But there may be a catch. It is expensive. "Typical costs are around 450.000$". That may seem much, alright. But the fact that this treatment is only necessary once in half a century at best relativates this. The majority of the people in a Fifth Wave nation should be able to afford this. And even if not, it may be possible to get a loan from a bank for this: considering that the recipient can most likely start a new life in which he can pay the money back with juicy interests should make this a sound investment. Even more, the highly developed nations could even consider to let health insurance pay for this...for fairness and equality's sake. Availability may be another matter. The treament exists since 2088 (THS page 15), so it is only around for 12 years in 2100. That and the expenses may mean that in the THS setting not everybody will enjoy the possibility to undergo cellular rejuvenation, at least not on a globally scale. I don't see the problem for the Fifth Wave nations of Western Europe, Japan, Australia etc. But according to canon the US is classified as a high Fourth Wave nation where "not everyone enjoys complete access to Fifth Waves technologies" albeit with "large Fifth Wave pockets thoughout the country" (Fifth Wave page 21). How this affects the availability of cellular rejuvenation is left to interpretation. China is classified as mainly Fourth Wave, India as partly even Third Wave - that could mean that only a minority have access to the fountain of youth. Same may be the case in large parts of South America. In some states of Africa it may even be the case that only the highest leadership of a state has the possibility to become young again - during a stay in Switzerland perhaps - after which they can return home and continue their good work with renewed vigor. What does this mean for the overall impact of that technology for the world? In my opinion: quite extensive. In a society in which everyone has himself or herself rejuvenated again when reaching the end of his/her natural lifetime (with a 99.5% chance of success) the number of only 0.1 children per woman would suffice to keep up the population size, at least for the next hundreds of years. Or let's view things from a different angle. The rate of reproduction in Britain is today (2006) around 1.7 children per woman. More than most other European nations, but nontheless this means that the British population will shrink in the future if there is no immigration. If now everyone in Britain would receive the cellular rejuvenation treatment of the THS setting and nothing else is changed, the British society would have the equivalent of a reproduction rate of a society with about 3.7 children per woman. Or in other words, the human population would explode. And that totally leaves out immigrants, sapient AIs, Bioroids or uplifted animals all of which may also contribute to crowding the streets. Now, it could be that SimonAce has a point with his only child theory. In the England of THS fewer women might decide to have children. Even the possibilty to be rejuvenated might affect this: while in the past the biological clock was ticking, in 2100 one can postpone the decision to procreate for another lifetime or two. Still, any number significantly over 0.1 children per woman will result in an strong increase in population and, let's face it, porcreation is a human instinct. Its the question wether the possible trend for people to undergo destructive uploading affects the matter. A Ghost that decides to continue his/her (?) normal life, let's say in a bioshell, would actually make the situation worse - a Ghost does not age and thanks to the chance to have a safety copy around, might even come back after an deadly accident, murder or an catastrophe of large proportions. Conclusion: the ramifications for the societies and therefore their politics of the THS setting may actually be quite severe. Especially the technology of cellular rejuvenation may cause significant demographic shifts. Even overpopulation may become a threat again. Any thoughts?
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"I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams." |
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11-05-2006, 06:49 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oldenburg, Germany
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Re: Immortality in THS
I think one of the possible solution of Fifth Wave nations is this:
Emigration. The Fifth Wave nations are saturated markets in many ways. Sure, there are business opportunities, but nothing that will really make you rich beyond avarice. On the other hand, developing markets have huge potential for growth - and thus, many Fifth Wavers, especially the young ones who have given up ever rising to the rang and status of the old guys around them (since they neither retire nor die off) will move to other countries and seek their fortune there - and thanks to the generally high Fifth Wave wealth, they usually have enough seed money to pull it off, and a high education to aid them in it. And the establishment in the Fifth Wave societies probably encourages this trend, since (a) having too many young rebels around would upset their society and (b) in the end, the emigrants are still likely to spread the dominant memes of their country of origin...
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GURPS Repository • Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English! |
11-05-2006, 07:46 AM | #3 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Immortality in THS
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Another possibility would be an increasingly militant "youth" culture. Part of the whole boomer problem was that the later boomers faced an economy that was oversupplied with labor at their age and experience levels, creating intense competition for jobs and economic stress; a measure of cultural alienation might plausibly follow. |
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11-06-2006, 06:17 AM | #4 | |
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Poland
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Re: Immortality in THS
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Also, obviously, marriages "till death do us part" become a thing of the past, since not many people are able to live with the same mate for hundreds of years. |
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11-06-2006, 08:26 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Immortality in THS
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When I was in elementary school in the 1950s, as the son of a divorced mother—indeed, twice divorced, and I had a half-sister from the second marriage—I was unusual: there were kids from nuclear families all around me. Now children whose parents have divorced, or never married in the first place, are commonplace. Deepak Lal writes about the idea that countries such as India and China can attain liberal capitalist legal and economic institutions without changing their fundamental cultural values and especially their sexual mores. But what if he's simply looking at too short a time horizon? As their life expectancy continues to rise with economic growth, they might evolve their own postmarital arrangements. Perhaps the future of Transhuman Space is one where both countries have a newly emerging population of children from dissolved and blended families. |
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11-06-2006, 02:02 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the UFO
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Re: Immortality in THS
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- Cellular regeneration is meant to be a dangerous and expensive option at the cutting edge of medical treatment; the text says it is still controversial due to the risk involved. I expect it will be much more common and reliable in another 5-10 years, though. - There are vast numbers of places in THS where exotic and risky medical treatment of this and other types is easily available; the strong transhumanist and morphological freedom memes lead to this. You won't get sued; there's decades of case law dating from the 2040s onward protecting you. - Combos of artery cleaners, DNA repair, carinophages, immune machines, biogenesis organ transplant etc. mean that you should have a ridiculously extended lifespan anyway. As long as you're effectively in a 4th or 5th wave society, you pretty much just won't die of "old age." - I suspect circa 2120 the conditions will exist for a major population movement off world, thanks to the completion of the Earth beanstalk and a desire to escape from growing social instability on Earth caused by increasing distance as societies transition out from Fourth Wave to Fifth Wave and FW entities demand full reproductive rights, leaving those stuck in Third Wave to Fourth Wave transition completly behind in terms of numbers and economic power.
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Is love like the bittersweet taste of marmalade on burnt toast? Last edited by David L Pulver; 11-06-2006 at 02:07 AM. |
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11-06-2006, 04:28 PM | #7 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finland
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Re: Immortality in THS
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11-06-2006, 11:34 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Immortality in THS
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This may be a sociological trend more than a resource one. Space, Underwater and Arcology enviroments offer plenty of living room some of it is pretty cheap. Societies that are 3rd wave now regard chidren as an expense (c'f the Birth Dearth et all) I suspect 4th wave and up regard children as totally optional. Its not like you need heirs or anyone to support you as a senior and its a lot of work to raise kids even with SAI help. many 4th and 5th wavers are lazy of course religious and political meme carriers try to increase procreation as do some consumerist ones do in a more subtle fashion (at least so I suspect) NON CANON ALEART Now in my THS most interaction is electronic or with digital inteligences. People need people but they don't need meat people necessarily The number one public health concerns are VR/Slinky addiction followed by Nano Sucidide -- aka Icing or going into stasis without medical necessity Now back on topic. In a society with defacto immortality -- at least through Nano Stasis available to all ($2500 can be saved by almost anyone) reproduction is totally optional Also NON CANONICAL Nihlist groups like Eversleep (the sucessor to Vhemt) may offer free nano statis to persons suffering from systemic depression. This is in leiu of anti depressent therapy. While biogical depression is a taboo trait in THS people still get depressed and bored and sick of life -- especially the poor and unemployed (30% official THS -- 65% IMC) Eversleep offers a way out without dying. IMC one theme I play with (no campaign at this time BTW) is the opposite of THS -- rather than neotany and constant change I use a "same o same o" approach -- change is accelerating but nothing really changes. The meme is popular among the over 50 set -- we call it burn out or ennui. Its a 180 degree switch from the optimistic technophillia of THS -- sure you have more toys but you have already done everything and learned all you want to -- now what ? The poor have even less options -- its VR or nothing most of the time for more than 1/3 of the population (up to 2/3 IMC non canonical) -- The new beanstalk if it happens may change some things though -- Go Europe |
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11-16-2006, 05:34 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oldenburg, Germany
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Re: Immortality in THS
Well, people in Europe have a lot more time than people today, and are not constrained by biological imperatives about when they are supposed to have children. So I could very well see people having children almost as a "hobby" - when they hit 70 or 80 and have achieved a comfortable position in society, they decide to raise a couple of kids.
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GURPS Repository • Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English! |
11-05-2006, 03:07 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oldenburg, Germany
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Re: Immortality in THS
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Really, this sort of technology, if it comes into existence, will find people who want to use it on them - despite the risks. Still, quite a few older people will probably avoid this treatment for quite some time because of that risk - and then die before they took it.
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GURPS Repository • Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English! |
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